Author Topic: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)  (Read 7266 times)

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domer

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Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« on: December 21, 2006, 11:56:49 PM »
I studied cognitive dissonance in college sociology. The basic theory concerns the methods of rationalization people use when a closely-held belief is challenged by facts. President Bush no doubt experiences this to the extent he pays attention to the facts on the ground in Iraq rather than his ossified preconceptions. For me, however, it may come when and if I announce nonsupport for Bush's continued war for all the reasons I have stated thus far and will come to understand in the future. Just like everybody in this country, I will have to make a choice between openly supporting the president's policy or openly criticizing it for the sake of what I see as truth and wisdom. (I take it we all support what is true and wise.) Another alternative which really cedes your citizenship rights and duties is to meekly sit this one out. I take it on strong evidence that none of us here are of that mindset, except maybe Crane.

The two horns of my dilemma are these: I want my country to succeed to the maximum extent it can according to our values and the realities we face. That's pretty much a no-brainer. So I have a very strong incentive to see the (right) policy succeed, but, and this is where dissonance comes in, I also have a strong incentive to validate my honest analysis of the facts and principles involved. It could be a struggle between an "imposed patriotism" and one's conservation of the very lifeblood of existence itself: the free pursuit of happiness in the sense of being master (in your own mind at least) of defining what is true and wise.

Analyzed as a political matter rather than a sociological issue, support for the developing policy is deeply affected by the leadership style Bush has forced on the populace, which has been widely rejected according to recent poll numbers. Beyond dissatisfaction, for some others there is a visceral revulsion at his very manner of thinking and speaking. Fences need to be mended, a consensus needs to be built around a successful strategy.

Yet, just because Bush decides it one way doesn't, of course, make it right. That gets us back to dissonance. Vietnam is a nightmare lesson on how not to handle the politics of an unpopular war. It also illustrates the painful dilemma many good people face when asked to support a policy that, with all their heart and soul, they believe to be wrong.

If Bush succeeds -- according to all the criteria we hold dear -- it is undeniable that we all succeed. But that raises two problems for the "conscientious objecter": the odds are against him, maybe prohibitively so, thus bolstering our opposing approach in our minds, and until the time should come that the balance tips, we will possess a jangle of emotions not easily managed. Thinking one way and being asked to support a policy opposite to it will lead to revulsion, say, at the thought of blown-up soldiers or any of the other horrors of war that the prevailing policy produces. Are we simply expected to sit back and let the grisly panorama unfold? This is serious business, far beyond my meager ability to comprehend, let alone manage. But, unfortunately, somebody has to.

Now, to the nut of the matter: two men I am very close to will be deployed to Iraq in February and May, respectively. This heightens tremendously the tension I feel normally at the plight of our soldiers in what I now consider an unwise venture. They will be gung ho and ready to rock-and-roll for America. The question is, in my state of dissonance, how do I support them to my fullest ability while maintaining my very integrity of mind?

During Vietnam

Lanya

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 12:19:09 AM »
Encourage them, and let them talk to you.  Simply be there for them to talk to, if they ever get much chance to do that.
March here, be a friend via email to them.   Call your senators and reps here, send packages to your friends and their units in Iraq.
Do what you would want someone to do for you.  Be a friend, and be a citizen standing up for them.   
I am sure I'm missing the mark with you but that is my contribution.   
I forgot to add---Pray for them, let them know you're praying for them.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 12:22:13 AM by Lanya »
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Plane

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 01:48:42 AM »
Idealists disagree on the methods and even on the ideals .

I appreciate your eschewing bogus arguments or twisting words to other then their intended meaning .

I do not think that JFK's ideals of defending democracy are out of place in this question .


The world at large is very slowly evaluating the idea that Men have inalienable rights , this is a meme that I want to see grow and spread in a durable trend.

When I enlisted , this was one of the things I had in mind , I knew that this was not what everyone joined for , nor was it my only reasoning.

But I thought it important.

Brassmask

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 03:22:27 PM »
For now, my firsthand experience with people actually fighting on the ground in Iraq is nil.  I know people who have loved ones there and my heart really goes out to them.  For all my venom for Bush and his actions in Iraq, I have nothing hope for the troops safety and return.  There is no blame for them in this whatsoever in my view. 

If I did know someone personally over there, I would do as I did when I had a friend in Kuwait (who never really saw action) and send them letters of support and let them know I was thinking of them.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 08:49:11 PM »
The question is, in my state of dissonance, how do I support them to my fullest ability while maintaining my very integrity of mind?
==============================================================
What would be the difference of supporting them and not supporting them? You could send them cookies, or messages from home and still oppose the war as a bad idea. There is no way that anything you could do or say would change the orders they received or how they carried it out, is there?

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

domer

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 09:32:12 PM »
Pardon my personality, but I'm not into cookies, XO. I have both deep and strong emotional bonds with these two men, much moreso with the younger one, who's a Marine, and whom I love almost as if he were my own. The normal distancing strategies are not appropriate here, nor wanted, even for my younger former colleague, who will leave at home the most adorable set of four-year-old twin girls. I have intimate relationships with each, if avuncular, moreso with the Marine, in the sense that we talk about personal stuff and long ago have bonded on the journey through life together. I've always been honest and straightforward, as is my normal style. For that matter, I'm a very poor dissimulator, so I hardly ever try it. What I need is a way to genuinely share their not only their goals but their enthusiasms, and not simply sip my Irish whiskey in my easy chair and lament their bad fortune, which I am being told to blame on that evil president, their commander-in-chief.

Michael Tee

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2006, 12:59:52 AM »


<<Yet, just because Bush decides it one way doesn't, of course, make it right. That gets us back to dissonance. Vietnam is a nightmare lesson on how not to handle the politics of an unpopular war. It also illustrates the painful dilemma many good people face when asked to support a policy that, with all their heart and soul, they believe to be wrong.>>

You're dead wrong.  It's no dilemma at all for good people.  They fight the war with everything they've got.  At the cost of their own lives.   Like Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King.  Like Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.  Like the Chicago Seven.  Like the four students killed at Kent State.  Like millions of unknown students and activists who marched and protested and campaigned and were shot, gassed and beaten for their pains. 

<<If Bush succeeds -- according to all the criteria we hold dear -- it is undeniable that we all succeed. >>

If he succeeds in invading another sovereign country, killing its leaders and substituting the kind of government America thinks they should have, you all succeed?  Succeed at what?  Breaking every vestige of international law developed since 1945 and getting away with it?  Congratulations would be in order?  I don't think so.

<<Now, to the nut of the matter: two men I am very close to will be deployed to Iraq in February and May, respectively. This heightens tremendously the tension I feel normally at the plight of our soldiers in what I now consider an unwise venture. They will be gung ho and ready to rock-and-roll for America. The question is, in my state of dissonance, how do I support them to my fullest ability while maintaining my very integrity of mind?>>

Let me solve this problem for you, domer.  It's really a no-brainer.  Imagine, for the moment, that you not only believed that the war was "an unwise venture," but had come to consider it to be an abominable crime and a gross violation of international law.  Do these two guys respect you enough that, knowing of your views, they would refuse to serve?  Or would they ship out anyway, knowing full well what you thought of the whole thing?  It's my guess that regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about the war, they are going over there and pulling the trigger on anyone they're told to pull the trigger on.

What you have given us is a classic example of liberal hand-wringing and self-doubt.  Classic.  Fascism has no self-doubt.  They ship out, they bomb, they kill.  End of story.  Whereas YOU will agonize endlessly, should I support these guys or not support them?  How can I withhold my support?  and similar neurotic concerns that basically aren't on these guys' radar screens.  You don't support what isn't right.  Period.  This is not rocket science.  If you're really close to them, you TELL them, "Listen guys I am 5000% smarter than either one of you and this whole fucking thing is a crock.  Not only a crock: it's criminal.  Don't go, guys.  It's the wrong thing to do and I'm telling you that right now.  If you go ahead and participate in any of this, you're nothing but a fucking criminal and I'll lose any respect I ever had for you.  So think it over, kid and if you decide NOT to go, I'll help you any way I can; and on the other hand, if you DO go, you better say goodbye and lose my phone number and my home address.  Sometimes, consensus ISN'T everything.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2006, 08:10:29 AM »
How easily the difficult dilemmas are resolved.

Just grab the proper horn, and give it a twist.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2006, 07:45:08 PM »
<<How easily the difficult dilemmas are resolved.

<<Just grab the proper horn, and give it a twist.>>

If only all of them were THAT easy!!

domer

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2006, 09:09:56 PM »
XO & Michael: the title invited in only adult viewpoints, either that or smart ones.

larry

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2006, 09:29:38 PM »
Hello All and Merry Christmas. I have not made a post since the election day. The new year and the new house, will come soon enough. There are only a couple of things that matter in Iraq. Corporate control of the oil fields and the billions of dollars being taken from the people of America to fund the military industrial complex.

Now, Bush wants 190 billion dollars more for the war. Its been a very good year for the war mongers and Americans still don't see the scam.

Objective: Un-influenced by emotions or personal prejudice.

Objectivism: One of several doctrines holding that all reality is objective and that knowledge is reliably based on observed objects and events.

 

Subjective: Proceeding from or taking place within a person's mind such as to be unaffected by the external world. Existing only in the mind, Illusory.

Subjectiveism: The theory that individual conscience is the only valid standard of moral judgment.

Extortion: Illegal use of one's official position or power to obtain property, funds or patronage. The act or an instance of extorting. An excessive or exorbitant charge.


If Americans want to win this war against corporate America, Americans must attack the propaganda. Its not about family values, or moral values, its not about god and country, it has always been about creating a reason to justify government corruption. Fraud, extortion and racketeering. Now lets hear what the dems have to say.

Lanya

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2006, 10:31:44 PM »
What I'm hearing is that you love these young men like they were sons, or nephews.
Now, they're going off gung-ho into a war you have come to view as unwise.
So what is the right course of action, for you and for them?

You may feel you can't say exactly what you think about this war because it would discourage them, and that would make it harder for them to fulfill their mission. 
You're right.
That's why I emphasized the things you can do, the morale-boosting things that would help their units. 

Sometimes cookies (or legal advice, etc)  are as good as it gets.  It shows you care. It shows you love them and want them to succeed.  It does not demoralize them. It just...gives.  That is how I see your role now. 
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domer

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2006, 04:50:25 PM »
Lanya, I appreciate your comments deeply and thank you for them. Yet, as I've tried to pose the question over these last many weeks, there is no clear solution to the Iraq situation for responsible-minded folks. At this point, stripped of all the administrations grand ambitions and ego investment, the task is to draw American involvement to the most successful conclusion possible under the realities we face. At the same time however, we must be looking forward and positioning ourselves for the long, difficult struggle with violent, radical Islam, a conflict we simply can't afford to lose. (This latter struggle, the "main event," needs, as I've stated, a multifaceted offensive using every mode of engagement at our disposal in a more or less coordinated effort to allow the wisdom of moderate Islam to triumph.) As to this overall struggle, I note that even today a battleground is blasting in Somalia, again, indicating at least to me that there is much religious/political/cultural attraction for a jihad which could spread to vulnerable sites. This is serious business, and it cannot be underestimated. As the poison of fascism spread far enough and deep enough to bring all the members of a great nation under its thrall, so to, I suggest, like the Bolsheviks before them (switching political metaphors), the violent, radical Islamists may attract just enough followers, adherents and fighters, and grab hold of just enough levers of power in the Muslim world, to transform its quest into a widely-supported movement.

Iraq is a battle in that overall struggle, not the war itself. Strategic decisions have to be made in terms of our overall purpose, not simply the outcome of one front. In assessing Iraq's significance in that larger context, we have to be acutely aware of realities (no nation has ever won a war by ignoring them). It may well be that Iraq is now lost in the sense that a rabid civil war is inevitable and the consequent political structure thereafter is beyond are ability to influence and control. Yet, that is a speculation and not a foregone conclusion.

As I have analyzed the situation, there is a possibility that a surge could buy enough time to salvage the present Iraqi government and perhaps allow its perpetuation, yielding an outcome much more favorable, if remote, to our interests and the majority of the Iraqi people themselves. Thus, I sumit, a surge is a rational approach to the problem even if its success is against the odds.

On the other hand, beginning withdrawal is also a rational choice, but it has an equally unsure foundation: what do we do -- under the situation now facing us, not the folly and mismanagement that has brought us to this pass -- to assure the best possible launch-point post-Iraq to fight and win the overall war against violent, radical Islam? As far as I can see, matching Bush's myopia, the Democrats have not defined such a program or vision, the one that could seize the strategic moment and inject more rationality and promise into our fight.

By default then, and extrapolated nationally, I will support, until another "tipping point" clearly arises, whatever rational strategy emerges from the present review and renew process. This means I will share my "nephew's" and my friend's mission as well as their hopes, enthusiasms, etc. I say "extrapolated nationally" in the first sentence in this paragraph because every soldier and Marine, OUR fighting men and women, needs our heartfelt solidarity as much as our detached prayers. The only difference now for me is that I am now intimately connected to the danger they face while doing their nation's business, rather than being abstractly connected by an image I say I revere: the brave and innocent soldier standing sentry to guard the life I treasure more than anything in the world save for God's providence.

Michael Tee

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2006, 11:51:16 PM »
<<XO & Michael: the title invited in only adult viewpoints, either that or smart ones.>>

Ahh, domer:  up to your usual standards of intelligent rebuttal of unanswerable arguments, I see.  And your wit has lost none of its rapier sharpness.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2006, 12:15:10 AM »
<<XO & Michael: the title invited in only adult viewpoints, either that or smart ones.>>

Ahh, domer:  up to your usual standards of intelligent rebuttal of unanswerable arguments, I see.  And your wit has lost none of its rapier sharpness.
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If the war in Iraq is immoral  :o and/or futile :-[ and stupid :P, why is suggesting that people not fight it is somehow not an adult idea? ???
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."