Domer's Dilemma (restricted EXCLUSIVELY to grown-ups)

[domer]

You're pathetic. Not a single thing to say of any benefit to anyone, certainly not to like-minded lunatics who may come to imitate you. "Intellectually dishonest"? Try your characterizing what those soldiers will be doing as "massacring thousands." Total bullshit. "Moralist"? Try explaining your hyperbolic "thoughts" in terms of the best approach to the situation we face now. NOW.

[Michael Tee]

<<Lets not berate someone who is navagateing through shoal waters seeking his own harbor .>>

Aww, c'mon plane, I wasn't BERATING him, I was just finding a little humour in his self-inflicted perplexity.  I mean, he'll figure it all out eventually - - three or four more "clashes of civilizations" and "existential threats" further on down the road.

<<I am certain that between the two of us one is wrong . . . >>

Yeah, me too, plane.  Wanna know who it is?

<< . . . and it is quite possible that two of us are .>>

ahh, plane, THAT could be a problem.  If BOTH of us are wrong, it means that the whole world is totally devoid of meaning and there's no explanation for anything.

[domer]

I'm going to bed, Tee. Commence jerking off, or ceasing to. I forget which.

[Michael Tee]

 <<"Intellectually dishonest"? Try your characterizing what those soldiers will be doing as "massacring thousands." Total bullshit.>>

Ooops, sorry.  Must have misread the casualty count.  Probably a few too many zeros in that 600,000.  All but a few hundred killed by U.S. forces, of course.  Silly, really, to think that those liberating armies could ever have killed more than a few dozen Iraqis in the course of their three-year invasion and occupation, and I'm sure most of those were accidental anyway.

[Michael Tee]

<<I'm going to bed, Tee. Commence jerking off, or ceasing to. I forget which.>>

Unfortunately, domer, the intellectual level of this discourse is becoming too complex for me.  I'm just a simple intellectual hypocrite and moral fraud and worse yet, a Canadian.  I'll never be able to follow the brilliant logic of your arguments but it was sure nice of you to try to explain things to me.

[Plane]

<< . . . and it is quite possible that two of us are .>>

ahh, plane, THAT could be a problem.  If BOTH of us are wrong, it means that the whole world is totally devoid of meaning and there's no explanation for anything.

This strikes me as a possibility.

Not my favoriate possibility , but it could be that McBeth was right in his solliquy and that all human striving is vain.
Or am I thinking of Eclesiasties ?

No matter, I disagree with that POV as guidence , but I must acnoledge its validity as a philosophical point that must be covered , a philosopher who does not touch this base will be called out.

My humility demands that I examine the possiblity that an opposite opinion to mine might be more correct . There are a lot of circuits that operate just as well in opposite polarity .

I think that my favroiat direction for history is in the direction of greater individual rights , greater power in the hands of the common man,greater disemination of learning and freer ability of individuals to travel and locate themselves . In between the USA and any other agent of these changes I prefer the USA for results.

I know that you will be able to point to a long list of failures and opposite actions , but I think the overall contribution of the USA to human history has been and is positive due to an even longer list of positive results and our overall disposition of Goodwill twards Mankind.

The Swiss and Sweedes have perfected peripheral involvement , Canadians take sides reluctantly the opposition to human progress and freedom generally puts a nation in opposition to the USA sooner or later.

[Michael Tee]

<<I know that you will be able to point to a long list of failures and opposite actions , but I think the overall contribution of the USA to human history has been and is positive due to an even longer list of positive results and our overall disposition of Goodwill twards Mankind.>>

Possibly.  But that "credit balance" - - if it exists at all - - is rapidly shrinking.

[Plane]

<<I know that you will be able to point to a long list of failures and opposite actions , but I think the overall contribution of the USA to human history has been and is positive due to an even longer list of positive results and our overall disposition of Goodwill twards Mankind.>>

Possibly.  But that "credit balance" - - if it exists at all - - is rapidly shrinking.

No , in Afganistan we prevented thousands  of deaths and brought home millions of refugees.

In Iraq we are attempting to wrest a people from the ruts of repression that they have been circleing in for melinnia.

We can fail , but it is an effort worthy of note even in the failing.


I know you cling to the old chestnut that our opponents hold dear , that it is avarice that motivates our every decision , but no , no such idea can be sold to the people on the basis of averice and I do not subscribe to the theroy that any cabal can have more influence on our directon than the people themselves.

[Michael Tee]

Sorry, plane, but I'm just not buying.  Afghanistan you had a decent shot at, but you began bleeding your own efforts there to bolster the war for oil in Iraq.  Now the Taliban are back in force there and it's turning into another fucking quagmire.  The point in any of these invasions is that occupied population knows it's there for life and they can outlast you.  Will outlast you when you seek to impose your culture and values on them and there's a determined large group of them (doesn't even have to come close to a majority) who are prepared to sacrifice their own lives to stop you.

Iraq contains a truth you just don't want to accept.  Even if the rationale for the invasion was just one big mistake (a ludicrous concept in itself which no straight-thinking person could have accepted at the time) the number of times it has changed and keeps changing (WMD; "democracy;" prevention of chaos; war on terror) would indicate to anyone who doesn't WANT to believe otherwise would indicate the bogus nature of the whole enterprise.

<<I know you cling to the old chestnut that our opponents hold dear , that it is avarice that motivates our every decision . . . >>

I never said every decision, but it sure as hell motivates the one we're talking about now and too many others as well.  You yourself virtually admit that Washington is a den of thieves and crooks, and a bipartisan den at that, why would avarice NOT motivate their every decision?  And/or to sucker in those who are not as crooked as they themselves are?

<< . . . but no , no such idea can be sold to the people on the basis of averice>>

Of course not, that's why they have to think up such bullshit as the WMD theory and now "bringing democracy."

<< and I do not subscribe to the theroy that any cabal can have more influence on our directon than the people themselves.>>

Sure it can - - that's why Lincoln said you can fool all of the people some of the time.  And we've seen it happen.  What we're seeing now is the rest of Lincoln's prediction, "You can't fool all the people all the time."  Pretty soon, even guys like you will realize how badly you've been had.

[Michael Tee]

<<Pretty soon, even guys like you will realize how badly you've been had.>>

Or not.  I neglected the "fool some of the people all the time" part.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Try your characterizing what those soldiers will be doing as "massacring thousands."

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I doubt that Domer's buddies are likely to massacre more than hundreds of Iraqis, and some of them will no doubt be guilty Iraqis.

Guilty, that is, of not wanting US troops around.
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One can only imagine how many 'guilty' Americans there might be in the US, if our nation were invaded by Iraqis intent on installing an honest and godly caliphate after having failed at finding alleged WMD's.

The evidence of equanimity is general to be revealed like this, by turning the tables and suggesting that B treat A in the same manner as  A has treated B.
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It seems to me that Tee's answer to Domer is a valid one, though not one that Domer might want to utter.
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Will it be possible for Domer, who apparently wants to offer gung-ho words of encouragement to his desert-camo'ed pals at the same time he questions the validity of their mission, which he views with some trepidation?

Would several hours more looking over Abu Graib photos help?

 How many Americans troops much die before Domer concludes that it wasn't worth it, after all?
Do maimed Americans count in this equation?

One notes that more Americans have now died in Iraq as died in 9-11. That must be some sort of minor milestone, at least.

How many Iraqis must become deceased? Is there a proportion here? One dead American troop equals how many dead Iraqis?

Does money expended on this fiasco count?

Is it a plus if the money returns to the US in Halliburton's account, or is it worse, because it stimulates corruption?

Of course, if the money leaves the US economy, then that would tend to hammer the dollar and cause inflation.

Perhaps a huge cache of WMD's will be found, thus freeing poor Domer from his dilemma...

[_JS]

Domer,

I'd like to reply if I am welcome to do so. There are at times issues such as this that do not favor simple analysis (or an Alex Trebek approach ). I think that if you are as close as you say to these soldiers, then acting anything less than your honest self would be seen as suspicious. At the same time, I tend to believe that the answer is not as complex as you might think.

1 Peter 3:8-11

8 Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble.
9 Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing.
10 For: "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep the tongue from evil and the lips from speaking deceit,
11 must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it.

[domer]

Thanks, JS. It's a question of optimally handling ambivalence, that is, being genuine on both fronts: solidarity with our soldiers and wisdom about their mission ... and following St. Peter's exhortation at the same time. Brother, how does just war theory fit into this discussion? (I'll answer it myself: the situation has changed drastically in Iraq since invasion, which was a mistake in retrospect. The task now is to leave the theater in the best shape the realities can yield, from our perspective and that of the Iraqis. This answer contemplates that we might have to fight our way out.)