Author Topic: The Pope and Muslims  (Read 4601 times)

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The_Professor

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The Pope and Muslims
« on: September 18, 2006, 11:27:15 AM »
What strikes me is this: all these imams get up and call for the destruction of Western civilization and death to Jews, we're supposed to - and do - accept that with equanimity.

But when the Pope quotes a beleaguered Byzantine emperor who was under military assault by Moslems, there are demonstrations in the Middle East. And the Pope is "upset" that Moslems would be offended.

No negative comments on Moslems to be allowed? At all?

Of course not. And to show how peaceful and civilized they all were, they went out and burned down four Christian churches.  If the people of the US burned a mosque we would have years of sensitivity training, our children would have one and only one subject in school, guilt, advanced guilt, more guilt. We are no good. They are all good. What is it you do not understand about that? You need sensitivity training.

Do you not know that Western Civilization is the source of all the ills of the world, and anyone who would defend a horror like that is a monster who needs to be punished until he understands? Sensitivity training. That will do the trick.


hnumpah

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2006, 12:32:04 PM »
I've got a couple of questions about this.

I haven't read the complete transcript of what the Pope said, but as I understand it, he read from a centuries-old manuscript from a Pope who, apparently during the time of the Crusades, characterized the Muslims as evil and made several nasty comments about their religion in general.

My first question is, why bring the subject up at all? If he wanted to make the point that religiions should not be at war, literally, with those who do not espouse their views, I'm sure he could have found a better way to make that point than to use an old text from a time when not only the Muslim religion, but Catholicism itself was intolerant of other religions.

Second, though there are historical reasons behind the text, and the point of view it espoused, if the current Pope was going to use it as some sort of example, would it not have made sense for him to explain then, at the time he made the comments and used the text, that the view of the Muslim religion presented by the text did not reflect his or the current Catholic church's view of the Muslim religion?

Seems to me the Pope fucked up. He could have brought up the issue of radical elements of [any religion] going to war with those who did not share their views, without doing it in a manner that gave the impression he, and the Catholic church, shared the views given in some ancient text written by a Pope who has been dead hundreds of years.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2006, 06:57:31 PM »
Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperor's words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

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In what way was Emproerer Manuel II incorrect?

In the exploration of the history of Christianity and Islam should it be ignored that Christians have attacked Islam with armys or should it be forgotten that Islam has attacked Christiandom with armys?

hnumpah

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2006, 08:48:15 PM »
My questions remain - why bring the subject up the way he did, using as an example that Muslims, specifically, spread their religion at the point of a sword (as if the Catholics didn't - look at the history of the conquest of the 'New' World for examples of their humanity toward their fellow man)?

As for saying it was a quote from an earlier text, did he specifically distance himself, and the Catholic church, from the belief expressed in the quote? Where did he specifically say that this is not the belief or teaching of the Catholic Church today?

He didn't, until the uproar began.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2006, 09:50:17 PM »
The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html




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I think that they have a clear idea about what they want .

The Popes speech was intended to be a call for all religious leaders to renounce violence, is this really a sacriledge?

If the Pope was clumsy in makeing his point does this excuse the fury that reaches killing intensity?

Islam is supposed to be about obedience to God and peace , that is probly why we are not fighting 1.5 billion of them .

Plane

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2006, 10:02:51 PM »
Some 200 Khamenei loyalists in the Syrian capital, Damascus, held a protest Monday at an Islamic shrine, dismissing the pope's apology. "The pope's sorrow was equivocal," read one banner.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214318,00.html



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What really hurts is protest banners that reveil a better vocabulary than the tipical American.
I haven't ever used "Equivocal" in a sentance.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 10:06:23 PM »
There was absolutely no reason for the Pope to mention anything about past hostilities between Muslims and Christians. He isn't going to convince anyone of anything with this, and it is so easy to set off a storm.

The truth does exist, of course. Either God is a triune deity (Father + Son+ Holy Ghost) or there is just one, one-piece God.
Either Jesus is the Son of God, or he isn't.
Either Mohammad was the last true prophet, or he wasn't.

Or they are all wrong and none of this is true.

But fighting about the truth makes no sense whatever to either side.

What the Pope did is akin to walking up to Mike Tyson, tapping him on the shoulder and saying "Hey! Mike! Yo' Momma's Ug-Leee!"
Not smart, not useful, serves no purpose.
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sirs

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Re: The Pope and Muslims
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2006, 01:29:05 AM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle