Author Topic: Saddam Hussein executed  (Read 24445 times)

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Plane

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Saddam Hussein executed
« on: December 30, 2006, 12:13:48 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16389128/?GT1=8816


Saddam Hussein was hanged Saturday under a sentence imposed by an Iraqi court.



Mucho

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 12:31:51 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16389128/?GT1=8816


Saddam Hussein was hanged Saturday under a sentence imposed by an Iraqi court.




We are really screwed now. No one can hold that nation that we turned to shit together now.

BT

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 12:54:20 AM »
Seems to me stable nations are held together by laws and not strongmen, so in this case Iraq is one step closer to becoming one of those nations.

Mucho

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 02:58:10 AM »
Seems to me stable nations are held together by laws and not strongmen, so in this case Iraq is one step closer to becoming one of those nations.

For a Faux tough guy, you sure are a naive Pollyanna:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/30/saddam/print.html




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Saddam: The death of a dictator

Through the bumbling of the U.S.-backed regime, justice becomes revenge, and a despot becomes a martyr.
By Juan Cole

Dec. 30, 2006 | The body of Saddam, as it swung from the gallows at 6 a.m. Saturday Baghdad time, cast an ominous shadow over Iraq. The execution provoked intense questions about whether his trial was fair and about what the fallout will be. One thing is certain: The trial and execution of Saddam were about revenge, not justice. Instead of promoting national reconciliation, this act of revenge helped Saddam portray himself one last time as a symbol of Sunni Arab resistance, and became one more incitement to sectarian warfare.

Saddam Hussein was tried under the shadow of a foreign military occupation, by a government full of his personal enemies. The first judge, an ethnic Kurd, resigned because of government interference in the trial; the judge who took his place was also Kurdish and had grievances against the accused. Three of Saddam's defense lawyers were shot down in cold blood. The surviving members of his defense team went on strike to protest the lack of protection afforded them. The court then appointed new lawyers who had no expertise in international law. Most of the witnesses against Saddam gave hearsay evidence. The trial ground slowly but certainly toward the inevitable death verdict.

Like everything else in Iraq since 2003, Saddam's trial became entangled in sectarian politics. Iraq is roughly 60 percent Shiite, 18 percent Sunni Arab and 18 percent Kurdish. Elements of the Sunni minority were favored under fellow Sunni Saddam, and during his long, brutal reign this community tended to have high rates of membership in the Baath Party. Although many members of Saddam's own ethnic group deeply disliked him, since the U.S. invasion he has gradually emerged as a symbol of the humiliation that the once-dominant Sunni minority has suffered under a new government dominated by Shiites and Kurds.

Saddam was a symbol of Sunni-Shiite rivalry long before the U.S. occupation. In 1991, while he was in power, he had ferociously suppressed the post-Gulf War Shiite uprising in the south, using helicopter gunships and tanks to kill an estimated 60,000. After the invasion, many Shiites wanted him to be captured, while many Sunnis helped him elude capture. When Saddam was finally caught by U.S. forces in late 2003, Shiites in the Baghdad district of Kadhimiya crossed the bridge over the Tigris to dance and gloat in the neighboring Sunni Arab district of Adhamiya, provoking some clashes. After his capture, students at Mosul University, in Iraq's second-largest and mostly Sunni Arab city, chanted, "Bush, Bush, hear our refrain: We all love Saddam Hussein!" and "We'll die, we'll die, but the nation will live! And America will fall!"

As the U.S. consolidated control over Iraq, meanwhile, Sunni alienation increased. The American occupiers adopted punitive measures against members of the Baath Party, who were disproportionately though by no means universally Sunni Arab. The army was dissolved, sidelining 400,000 troops and the predominantly Sunni officer corps. Thousands of Sunni Arab civil servants and even schoolteachers were fired.

A "de-Baathification" committee, dominated by hard-line Shiites like Nouri al-Maliki (now prime minister) and Ahmed Chalabi, denied large numbers of Sunni Arabs the right to participate in political society or hold government positions on grounds of links to the Baath Party. Sometimes politicians were blackballed simply because a relative had been high in the party.

As Iraq spiraled down into a brutal civil war with massive killing and ethnic cleansing, many Iraqis began to yearn for the oppressive security of the Saddam period. After the destruction of the golden dome of the Shiite Askariya mosque in Samarra last February, Iraqis fell into an orgy of sectarian reprisal killings.

By the time of Saddam's trial, sectarian strife was widespread, and the trial simply made it worse. It was not just the inherent bias of a judicial system dominated by his political enemies. Even the crimes for which he was tried were a source of ethnic friction. Saddam Hussein had had many Sunni Arabs killed, and a trial on such a charge could have been politically savvy. Instead, he was accused of the execution of scores of Shiites in Dujail in 1982. This Shiite town had been a hotbed of activism by the Shiite fundamentalist Dawa (Islamic Call) Party, which was founded in the late 1950s and modeled on the Communist Party. In the wake of Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini's 1979 Islamic Revolution in neighboring Iran, Saddam conceived a profound fear of Dawa and similar parties, banning them and making membership a capital crime. Young Dawa leaders such as al-Maliki fled to Tehran, Iran, or Damascus, Syria.

When Saddam visited Dujail, Dawa agents attempted to assassinate him. In turn, he wrought a terrible revenge on the town's young men. Current Prime Minister al-Maliki is the leader of the Dawa Party and served for years in exile in its Damascus bureau. For a Dawa-led government to try Saddam, especially for this crackdown on a Dawa stronghold, makes it look to Sunni Arabs more like a sectarian reprisal than a dispassionate trial for crimes against humanity.

Passions did not subside with time. When the death verdict was announced against Saddam in November, Sunni Arabs in Baquba, to the northeast of the capital, staged a big pro-Saddam demonstration. They were attacked by the Shiite police that dominate that mixed city, who killed 20 demonstrators and wounded a similar number. There were also pro-Saddam demonstrations in Fallujah and Mosul. Baghdad had to be put under curfew.

The tribunal also had a unique sense of timing when choosing the day for Saddam's hanging. It was a slap in the face to Sunni Arabs. This weekend marks Eid al-Adha, the Holy Day of Sacrifice, on which Muslims commemorate the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son for God. Shiites celebrate it Sunday. Sunnis celebrate it Saturday –- and Iraqi law forbids executing the condemned on a major holiday. Hanging Saddam on Saturday was perceived by Sunni Arabs as the act of a Shiite government that had accepted the Shiite ritual calendar.

The timing also allowed Saddam, in his farewell address to Iraq, to pose as a “sacrifice” for his nation, an explicit reference to Eid al-Adha. The tribunal had given the old secular nationalist the chance to use religious language to play on the sympathies of the whole Iraqi public.

The political ineptitude of the tribunal, from start to finish, was astonishing. The United States and its Iraqi allies basically gave Saddam a platform on which to make himself a martyr to Iraqi unity and independence -- even if by unity and independence Saddam was really appealing to Sunnis' nostalgia for their days of hegemony.

In his farewell address, however, Saddam could not help departing from his national-unity script to take a few last shots at his ethnic rivals. Despite some smarmy language urging Iraqis not to hate the Americans, Saddam denounced the "invaders" and "Persians" who had come into Iraq. The invaders are the American army, and the Persians are code not just for Iranian agents but for Iraqi Shiites, whom many Sunni Arabs view as having Iranian antecedents and as not really Iraqi or Arab. It was such attitudes that led to slaughters like that at Dujail.

In his death, as in his life, Saddam Hussein is managing to divide Iraqis and condemn them to further violence and brutality. But the Americans and the Shiite- and Kurd-dominated government bear some blame for the way they botched his trial and gave him this last opportunity to play the spoiler.

Iraq is on high alert, in expectation of protests and guerrilla reprisals. Leaves have been canceled for Iraqi soldiers, though in the past they have seldom paid much attention to such orders. But perhaps the death of Saddam, who once haunted the nightmares of a nation, will soon come to seem insignificant. In Iraq, guerrilla and criminal violence executes as many as 500 persons a day. Saddam's hanging is just one more occasion for a blood feud in a country that now has thousands of them.

-- By Juan Cole

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 10:23:09 AM »
Perhaps trying and executing Saddam was not the politically reasonable thing to do at this time. He deserved to be executed as much as any dictator, more than most.

His death guarantees that he won't be back, and that a new era has started.

It does not guarantee that someone like him, or worse, will not end up running Iraq, nor does it guarantee that the new era will be better.

Idi Amin was ghastly and brutal, but Milton Obote was far worse. He was not a cannibal, and he lacked theatricality, so he did not get into the Western newspapers as often.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 03:40:38 PM »
Anybody who is dumb enough to think that Saddam got a fair trial, or that this dispensation of "justice" is an auspicious beginning for a "new, democratic Iraq," should read the Juan Cole commentary in Salon, which Knute just linked to.  I don't think the article even mentioned that one of the judges was yanked off the bench in the middle of the trial by the "Iraqi government" because he seemed to be favouring Saddam.  Yeah that was some fair trial.

Sure, Saddam probably deserved what he got.  But for all that it had to do with justice, democracy and the rule of law, he might just as well have been beaten to death in prison by his guards while awaiting trial.

On a slightly different tack, here is some interesting stuff from the Juan Cole article:

<<Who encouraged Saddam to invade Iran in 1980, which was the greatest war crime he has committed for it led to the deaths of a million and a half souls? And who sold him the components for the chemical weapons with which he drenched Iran and the Kurds? We did. No wonder the Americans, who controlled Saddam's weird trial, forbad any mention of this, his most obscene atrocity, in the charges against him. Could he not have been handed over to the Iranians for sentencing for this massive war crime? Of course not. Because that would also expose our culpability.>>

Of course, the Iraqis already know this.  The trial and the verdict aren't going to change any minds over there.  Only the Americans (some of them) could be dumb enough to think that this was a triumph for justice and the rule of law.



sirs

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 03:56:59 PM »
Anybody who is dumb enough to think that Saddam got a fair trial, or that this dispensation of "justice" is an auspicious beginning for a "new, democratic Iraq," should read the Juan Cole commentary in Salon, which Knute just linked to.  

LOL....yea, no bias or agenda there      ::)      Oh, and by the way, what would have been a "fair trial" and "dispensation of Justice", Tee?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 04:23:38 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 04:11:54 PM »
How do you "fairly" try one for massive crimes that are common knowledge, that, if they don't get coverage in every newspaper and TV news broadcast, are nonetheless on the tip of everyone's tongue, if clandestinely? Indeed, Saddam's reign of terror based veritably based on the spread of such knowledge. Thus framed, though the trial was a foregone conclusion from any realist's standpoint -- allowing only claims of sovereignty and illegal occupation to provide speed bumps on the way to the gallows -- the process was necessary and fitting. As ceremony, discounting flaws which didn't really detract from that purpose, it worked. Where I find Cole to be offering wisdom is in his appreciation of the capacity of this event, as choreographed by the Dawa-led government, to further inflame passions and make even more remote the chance of any kind of a reconciliation whatsoever. I would even go beyond that by suggesting for exploration (in hindsight) the potential for having used Saddam as a Machiavellian pawn to bargain his life for Sunni concessions.

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 04:31:07 PM »
<< . . . the process was necessary and fitting.>>

Yeah?  It's "fitting" that a judge is yanked off the bench in the middle of the trial by the "government" because he's showng too much regard for the accused?

You sound kinda laid-back for a defence counsel, domer.  If that was YOUR judge in a trial of YOUR client, you'd just proceed on meekly to a judgment and accept whatever the "government's" hand-picked judge had in store for your client?  You must be one in a million.

Amianthus

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2006, 04:41:05 PM »
Yeah?  It's "fitting" that a judge is yanked off the bench in the middle of the trial by the "government" because he's showng too much regard for the accused?

IIRC, he wasn't "yanked off" for "showing too much regard", he was taken off the trial because he said that he had decided before the trial that Saddam was innocent, because he was never a dictator.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 04:44:20 PM »
<<How do you "fairly" try one for massive crimes that are common knowledge, that, if they don't get coverage in every newspaper and TV news broadcast, are nonetheless on the tip of everyone's tongue, if clandestinely? >>

I hope that wasn't a rhetorical question.

I would think you present evidence that meets legal standards of evidence, you allow the accused to test the evidence by cross-examination, you allow the accused to present evidence (that also meets legal standards) and you allow the prosecutor to test that evidence as well.  You have a fair and impartial judge to decide if the evidence meets the legal standards in the first place and at the end of the day to consider all the evidence and come to a conclusion.  Key to the process is the independent judiciary - - you gotta trust the judge to fairly make his rulings on the evidence presented and to reason it all out at the end of the trial.  It goes without saying the judge will decide on the basis of the evidence only and not on what is "common knowledge."

Personally, I think Saddam could have received a fair trial from an international court of criminal justice, but the problem with that is that the U.S.A. does not wish to acknowledge such a court's jurisdiction, because it has so many of its own war criminals and mass murderers to protect.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 04:50:25 PM »
Seems to me stable nations are held together by laws and not strongmen, so in this case Iraq is one step closer to becoming one of those nations.
==============================================================================

This is just not the way it works. Countries are ruled by strongmen not because of the presence of strongmen, but because of a lack of respect for the law. I am sure the US has thousands of potential strongmen who would love to become brutal dictators, but they cannot rule because of a respect for the law.

Killing Saddam will simply remove Saddam from the scene: the way that the law was applied in this trial would not make anyone respect the law one bit even in THIS country.

Iraqis believe in tribal justice and revenge, sort of like the Mafia's code of omertá. It will be a generation before Iraq develops a respect for the law on a par with Paraguay.

In the short run, I doubt that this execution will prove to be a positive step.

What with Juniorbush listening to everyone's phone calls, torturing detainees and covering up everything with a huge blanket of secrecy, the respect of Americans for the law is declining. Not to the mention bribery, election fraud and thievery by Halliburton and other contractors.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 04:50:41 PM »
<<IIRC, he wasn't "yanked off" for "showing too much regard", he was taken off the trial because he said that he had decided before the trial that Saddam was innocent, because he was never a dictator.>>

BULLSHIT.    And what's IIRC?

FROM THE NPR ARCHIVES:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6110412
 
<<A new chief judge presided over the Saddam Hussein trial on Wednesday after the former chief judge was removed, for declaring in a court session that Hussein was "no dictator." Human Rights Watch has condemned the removal as a threat to the independence of Iraq's courts.>>

Not a word about deciding that Saddam was innocent.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 04:53:32 PM by Michael Tee »

domer

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 04:59:28 PM »
You really make strange bedfellows, Michael, on your headlong charge to outrage.

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 05:34:05 PM »
No offense, domer, but you are starting to come off as somewhat repressed.  The normal response to outrageous conduct IS outrage.  There are some posters here who are too fucking dumb to know what is outrageous and what is not.  I don't put you in that category.  You know better.  You oughtta save your fire for the perpetrators of the outrages, not for those who are outraged by them.

And BTW I hope you don't mean Saddam is one of my strange bedfellows.  I've made it clear that he deserved what he got.