Author Topic: Saddam Hussein executed  (Read 24450 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2006, 12:58:33 PM »
<<Sure there is. Judges with even the slightest modicum of honor recuse themselves if their is even the appearance of conflict all the time. Don't know how the handle it in Canada but in America it happens frequently. >>

Gee, THAT'S a revelation.  Problem for you is, nobody has alleged conflict of interest was the reason for yanking the judge.  And nobody has shown any conflict of interest either.  That's because in FACT there was no conflict of interest.

<<And Cole not only has a biased point of view but he has quite the reputation for playing fast and loose with the facts. >>

A reputation that I was totally unaware of until now, which should have made it all the easier for you to skim through his short little article and tell us about all the facts that he played fast and loose with.  But that would be silly, wouldn't it, when you can just smear the guy as a liar, saving yourself the trouble of even acknowledging what he has to say, let alone disproving it. 

Know what I think?  I think Cole tells the truth, to which his crypto-fascist enemies have no answers, so in their usual state of desperation and intellectual bankruptcy, they rev up the old smear machine one more time.

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2006, 01:04:16 PM »
<<Well, that's my point. Saddam was no angel, to be sure. But I find it curious that some of the most damning allegations against him were never contested in a court of law. And I find it hard to believe that if he did indeed gas 5000 Kurds that there wouldn't be sufficient evidence to convict him.>>

Never mind the embarrassing questions of where he got the gas or its ingredients from in the first place.

Amianthus

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2006, 02:12:12 PM »
Gee, THAT'S a revelation.  Problem for you is, nobody has alleged conflict of interest was the reason for yanking the judge.  And nobody has shown any conflict of interest either.  That's because in FACT there was no conflict of interest.

<sarcasm>
Yes, because we all know that it's normal courtroom procedure for the judge to ask the defendant's permission to talk. Why, that's the way it is in Canada, I'm sure. The judges there all defer to the defendants, and ask permission to talk. They also allow defendants to make threats against the witnesses in open court, as well. We all know that is the standard of fairness in Canada and the rest of the civilized world.
</sarcasm>

Also, I think you forgot to mention that the removed judge was one of a panel of five. You're apparently trying to make it look like the only judge overseeing the trial was removed and replaced.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2006, 02:57:36 PM »
<sarcasm>
Yes, because we all know that it's normal courtroom procedure for the judge to ask the defendant's permission to talk. Why, that's the way it is in Canada, I'm sure. The judges there all defer to the defendants, and ask permission to talk. They also allow defendants to make threats against the witnesses in open court, as well. We all know that is the standard of fairness in Canada and the rest of the civilized world.
</sarcasm>

Also, I think you forgot to mention that the removed judge was one of a panel of five. You're apparently trying to make it look like the only judge overseeing the trial was removed and replaced.

WHAT??  Tee manipulate & egregiously distort the facts to paint an emotional picture of his made-up predisposition??  Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa     :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2006, 03:12:05 PM »
<<Yes, because we all know that it's normal courtroom procedure for the judge to ask the defendant's permission to talk. Why, that's the way it is in Canada, I'm sure. The judges there all defer to the defendants, and ask permission to talk. >>

You have a source that says that was the reason for removing the judge?  

Even assuming that was the reason for the judge's removal (which it probably wasn't) it would be a pathetic excuse.  Not,it wouldn't be normal conduct, but neitner was the trial a normal trial.  The accused was the former leader of the nation and was entitled to a certain measure of deference and respect from the bench.  Too much deference in itself would not have led to an unfair trial result, it just might have been one judge's way of avoiding arguments with Saddam based on his egotistical demands. This could have been dealt with either on appeal or by a motion for recusal brought at trial or by a motion for mistrial.  For the government to simply yank the guy in the midst of the trial is a clear-cut signal that the government is calling the shots and wants a conviction and a death penalty.

<<They also allow defendants to make threats against the witnesses in open court, as well. We all know that is the standard of fairness in Canada and the rest of the civilized world.>>

Allow my ass.  There were four other judges sitting, none of whom could have stopped Saddam's threats.  How the threats are dealt with is an individual judge's prerogative.  It's up to an independent judiciary to assess the threat and determine how best to deal with it in the circumstances.

Spin this any way you like, at the end of the day you are stuck with an indefensible travesty of a trial and conviction, a government-ordered killing having no relationship whatsoever to the rule of law.

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2006, 03:15:29 PM »
<<WHAT??  Tee manipulate & egregiously distort the facts to paint an emotional picture of his made-up predisposition??  Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  >>

Only a moron who failed to realize in the first place that there was a panel of judges trying the case would consider it manipulative not to mention the other judges.  It's akin to a jury-tampering case where the discussion "manipulates the truth" by failing to point out that there were eleven other jurors.   

sirs

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2006, 03:18:03 PM »
Only a moron who failed to realize in the first place that there was a panel of judges trying the case would consider it manipulative not to mention the other judges.  It's akin to a jury-tampering case where the discussion "manipulates the truth" by failing to point out that there were eleven other jurors.   

At least you've got yourself fooled, Tee
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2006, 03:22:34 PM »
Quote
Spin this any way you like, at the end of the day you are stuck with an indefensible travesty of a trial and conviction, a government-ordered killing having no relationship whatsoever to the rule of law.
 

At the end of the day Saddam is dead, at the hands of the elected Iraqi government.

End of story.

Amianthus

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2006, 03:30:15 PM »
You have a source that says that was the reason for removing the judge? 

ROFL. Funny. Asking for a source. What is the response that I always get from you? Something like "if you think I'm wrong, prove it?"

Anyway, articles from "The Guardian" and "BBC News" among others. These and other things were protested by the prosecution on numerous occasions.

Allow my ass.  There were four other judges sitting, none of whom could have stopped Saddam's threats.  How the threats are dealt with is an individual judge's prerogative.  It's up to an independent judiciary to assess the threat and determine how best to deal with it in the circumstances.

What was egregious was that the judge in question refused to allow any censure for the threats made by Saddam and his defense team. Since he was the head judge on the panel, he was able to overrule the other judges.












Some articles, BTW:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1872378,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5341234.stm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14888291/

And there are many more.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2006, 03:43:32 PM »
<<At the end of the day Saddam is dead,>>

OK, you got THAT right.

<< at the hands of the elected Iraqi government. >>

"elected" my ass

<<End of story.>>

yeah right.  Like "Mission Accomplished."

Hey don't feel bad, BT.  One out of three ain't bad.  For YOU guys.

BT

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2006, 03:55:17 PM »
Fact is the Iraqi government was elected. You not liking the results doesn't mean much.

domer

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2006, 04:31:27 PM »
Much ado about nothing, fellas, in my view. In addition to an actual witnessing, assuming perceptions to be true and properly processed, there are a number of different "truths" that can be brought to bear in a situation like Saddam's. I refer to the following, among others, all with their formal and informal "standards of proof," and variously applicable depending upon the event, the circumstances, the people involved, and so forth: thus, there is "journalistic truth," there is "historical truth," there is "truth derived from intelligence," there is "reputation and word of mouth," there is "political truth," and there is "formal legal proof." To set context, on both sides in Iraq hundreds of thousands, perhaps, have met their death by actions set in motion by much less cause than any of these. Saddam's capture and execution plays out against that backdrop, one which his brutality helped paint.

What is "fair" under the circumstances, to me, an experienced and well-respected defense lawyer, was met in Saddam's case on the information available to me. Every criminal trial approximates reality; it does not and cannot reproduce it. Here, based on voluminous evidence as I see it, Saddam was guilty of the Dujail killings beyond a reasonable doubt. That is not to mention the other atrocities, such as the attempted genocide of Iraqi Kurds and the slaughter of southern Iraqi dissidents after the first Gulf War, not to mention the Iran-Iraq War and the incidental brutalities of a vicious government's method of keeping control. As to Dujail, at least formally -- and I ask, with the widespread "publicity" given Saddam's regime, could he really be tried "fairly" in Iraq by Iraqis not of his deposed party? -- Saddam got the ceremony and the procedure due him, in a trial, in all frankness, that was foreordained as to outcome. The "facts" that did him in, proven according to legal rules and their recognized exceptions, paint a convincing picture of th evil with which he was charged. To be sure, there were flaws in the trial, but none significant to overcome the overwhelming "truth" I have just identified: Saddam was guilty of these charges according to the "legal proof" standard." And this is not to mention that he had been and will be judged on a larger stage as a longtime leader of a nation who committed horrible wrongs in the name of not so much as his personal ambition. All the "ancillary indices" of guilt -- the reliable intelligence reports, the journalistic accounts, the historical evidence, and so on -- painted the man as a monster.

Under the circumstances he was tried -- recall Nuremberg and its "fairness" -- leaving aside heady legal issues such as sovereignty and illegal foreign occupation, which were considered and rejected, Saddam got as fair a trial as the lot of man could allow, judged by all the indices of truth I have listed and any others that come to mind. In saying this, I assert that -- without condoning the sequence of charging nor the timing of the trial and execution, as well as what use his life could have been put to perhaps placating the Baathists -- Saddam had to be tried in Iraq for political/historical reasons that far outstripped any claim that he should have been sent to the Hague, or elsewhere. With ceremony and proof in hand, the Iraqis were enabled to express their judgment of this political, historical figure in a way that future generations may decry as to the wisdom of its incidentals but not as to the fate of its subject.

Michael Tee

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2006, 04:39:35 PM »
<<ROFL. Funny. Asking for a source. What is the response that I always get from you? Something like "if you think I'm wrong, prove it?">.

More often than not I've given a source when challenged.  When I did refuse to provide a source, it was either because I had done so in previous postings or because I felt that it was in relation to some more or less universally accepted or commonly known fact.

In any event, thank you for the Guardian leads.  I read the articles, from which I conclude:

The threats to the witnesses, as per the Guardian's reporters, were generalized hyperbolic threats to "crush the heads" of Saddam's accusers.  Since the "accusers" could mean anything from the witnesses to the government to the prosecutors, and since "crushing the heads" is an obviously rhetorical device, the judge may well have decided that a lengthy wrangle with Saddam would not have led anywhere productive, especially since it was already obvious to all concerned that the witnesses, with or without Saddam's threats, were already in mortal danger simply from the fact that they were testifying against him in court.  However, if the witness sees that even the court supposedly trying this guy is afraid to stop his threats, he may stop believing that he won't be killed for testifying, and may decide to moderate his evidence.

As to the judge's remark, "You were not a dictator, other people made you [look like] a dictator, this was in response to Saddam's rhetorical question, if he really were a dictator, why would a prosecution witness have confronted him over the disappearances of his family members, as he (the witness) claimed to have done?  Since Saddam was not charged with being a dictator, this remark is of relatively low significance.  Not being a dictator doesn't equate to not being guilty of the crimes charged, otherwise any accused criminal could simply prove that he wasn't a dictator and voila - - he'd be found innocent.  Doesn't work that way.  Still, I look on this as a human comfort effort - - same as if a woman is on trial for murder, a prosecution witness mentions how nobody liked "that stupid bitch," and the accused is obviously shaken by the comment.  If a judge were to say, "I don't think anyone would consider Ms. Jones a stupid woman, in fact, she's quite an intelligent woman," I don't think it indicates either that the accused is not guilty, in his mind, of murder, or even that he's biased in her favour.

It seems to me like the government was grasping at straws to cover their tracks in doing everything possible to ensure that Saddam would be tried by judges resolved to convict.  However, it wasn't right to allow Saddam to threaten witnesses in open court.  The reports don't indicate how vigorously the prosecution tried to stop the threats, which would have indicated how seriously they took them and how egregious the judge's misconduct actually was.  So we don't really know what the situation was.  But the proper way to resolve it would have been a mistrial or a prosecutor's appeal.  It seems  pretty clear to me from the above that the reason for replacing this judge was purely political, to ensure the conviction that the new government needed in order to put Saddam to death for political reasons.

I note also from the same sources that you referred me to that the trial was condemned by numerous human-rights groups including AI:

<<It has not only been Saddam's lawyers who have been complaining about the lack of a fair trial. A number of international organisations, including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and UN bodies, including the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention and the High Commissioner for Human Rights, have all said that the Special Tribunal is failing to meet international standards. Perhaps most embarrassing of all has been the decision by the UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, not to support the proceedings, expressing his own concerns over their fairness.


Plane

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2006, 07:49:55 PM »
I am glad that something resembleing a fair trial was held , even though lawyers and judges were operateing under death threat on both sides.

The trial had a wild west flavor, not quite as bad as Judge Roy Bean, but in the same vein.

I don't know how much better could have been done if Saddam Hussein had wanted his trial to be held at the Hauge he should hyave hied himself to that jurisdiction and surrendered to it when he could have.


Lanya

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Re: Saddam Hussein executed
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2006, 08:40:26 PM »
Religious Dick,

The reason I've heard for not including the gassing of the  Kurds in his list of charges... I thought I heard that we did not want this brought up because it would have brought up The Chummy Years. 
When he obtained the material with which to gas them, I think.  And he would no doubt have mentioned this.
 It doesn't make him right to do it but it looks very bad for us, supplying an evil dictator with provisions he later uses on his own people.
So he's dead, he had a trial, he hurt and killed a lot of innocents.  Now we move on. 
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