Record Stock Market

[Plane]

I might have chosen some purpose for the money that I thought more important

Yeah, like insurance?  Well, that money that you used to pay for insurance is now just going somewhere else.  What's the diff?

The diffrence is freedom and being treated like an adult.

Do I want my government to act like my parent ?

Do I want a tighter line drawn around my choices and my freedom to be reduced again?

[Religious Dick]

Yeah, it's sooooo failing in nearly every industrialized nation from Costa Rica to Israel to Canada to the UK.  Just failing its ass off.

Yeah, we hear that a lot. Here's what we don't hear: about 50% of new medical treatments developed each year are developed in the United States. Not Costa Rica, Canada, Israel or the UK, or even all of them put together.

Guess why?

[Brassmask]

Guess why?

One could imagine its because people in other countries get preventative medicine and are overall more healthy and therefore there is less need for new treatments.

One could also see how that since medicine and health care is a business here, the business must continually come up with new and exciting ways to treat illnesses in order to stimulate profits for the health care industry.  What was the last absolute, end-of-the-disease cure for a disease that you heard of?  Polio?

I imagine the cure number goes up in countries where a cure for a disease actually SAVES money for the public.  Absolute CURES in America would negatively impact the bottom line.

[Xavier_Onassis]

about 50% of new medical treatments developed each year are developed in the United States. Not Costa Rica, Canada, Israel or the UK, or even all of them put together.

Guess why?=====================================================

If 50% are developed in the US, then it means that 50% are developed elsewhere.

We pay through the nose for pharmaceuticals. They have a higher markup than yachts.

And no, most of the extra money is pissed away on advertising, trying to convince people who need D--Gel that they need Nexium at thirty times the price.

[Plane]

Guess why?

I imagine the cure number goes up in countries where a cure for a disease actually SAVES money for the public.  Absolute CURES in America would negatively impact the bottom line.

You might suppose so , but what are the facts?
As far as diagnostic devices , tecniques , drugs , or even cures .

Where is the best and most happening?

[sirs]

A) You said you are a Christian when you discussed the issue with Brass.

Context Js.  I referenced Christianity simply to quell the idea I should make him become one because I believe it's the right thing to do analogus to making me pay for what HE believes is the right thing to do("Why don't you keep your hands out of my pockets, and I'll refrain from trying to convert you to Christianity"), was the quote in context

B) Yes, so? (the one bringing the 2 together)  You said the two can coexist.

So why the do you keep asking me about it, as if I brought it into the realm of debating Capitalism??

C) I never claimed otherwise.

So why the frell do you ask me why I'm bringing the point up, the blurring of Christianity & Capitalism, the blurring of practicing religion and practicing domestic policy making??

You aren't a libertarian because you don't believe in individual freedom to that extent. You like government control over social issues.

LOL.....EXCUSE ME?  You're getting me confused with folks who promote Universal Health Care, Affirmative Action/Quotas, Tax paying subsidizing for illegal immigrants & their families, cradle to grave Governmental intervention, if not control

Yet, you support the free market, or at least I gathered so from your comment to Brass.

Hoo raaa, finally got something right   

Really?? So Christianity is not to be practiced at a community or society level? Just an individual level?

To be blunt yes.  I'm neither a preacher nor a theologian, but in my Christian opinion, it's to be practiced at an individual level 1st and formost.  Your actions as an individual, is what God looks at, and likely what you're judged on.  When you combine individual acts with others, THAT is what influences both community & society.  Individual acts are what influence society, but to focus your priorities & actions on trying to influence society misses the entire mark of what it is to be a Christian, IMHO

I endeavor to do my best.  Have you stoned any prostitues lately?

No, nor do I think Christ demands that of me. That is almost a pathetic atheist's response (and note I mean a pathetic atheist as opposed to an astute atheist).

Leviticus 20, 8-16 gets pretty "demanding" from the big guy himself, God.  Can you live up to them?  Point being is that we have become a bit more civilized and modernized, as Christians.  At least in theory. 
 

None of it seems to indicate support for free market economics or Christians acting only as individuals either.

That's because neither the Bible, nor Jesus, nor God are bringing forth any form of an economic plan to support or follow.  Which ironically, neither have I.  You seem to be the only one pulling that ome

From my point of view you are the one lacking consistency.  The state is irrelevant in my opinion. If they can do some good for society (and I think they can) then that should be pursued. I don't believe the unemployed should be left out in the cold as an "incentive" to find work. Nor do I believe that the aged should be left to work at Wal-Mart or a convenience store once they have reached an age where they should be able to retire.

And you'll note that YOU are not being prevented from doing anything in YOUR power, with YOUR money and YOUR resources, do help anyone in any way YOU wish.

I believe everyone should have a right to proper healthcare services, regardless of race or income. So in those cases the government as a representative of society should be able to make a positive difference.

Then by all means, lobby your congress critters to amend the Constitution to prompt the Government to provide precisely that, if that is the "will of the people"

I have no problem with the Government allocating money to faith-based resources in areas where they are proven to be succesful.

Cool.  Thanks for the additional clarity

[_JS]

Yeah, we hear that a lot. Here's what we don't hear: about 50% of new medical treatments developed each year are developed in the United States. Not Costa Rica, Canada, Israel or the UK, or even all of them put together.

Guess why?

What makes you think that? Are you presupposing that a nation with nationalised healthcare does not have private pharmaceutical companies?

I'm calling bullshit on the 50% number.

The German Pharmaceutical Merck (not to be confused with the American version which was taken from its German owners in the Great War) is an industry leader.

AstraZeneca is a former division of Imperial Chemicals, a British company and it split into its own major company and is located in London as well as having its research division located in Sweden - both nations with large nationalised healthcare systems.

They developed (to name a few):

Crestor
Tri-cor
Protein-Kinase B inhibitors
Avanir
Selective Glucocorticoid Receptor Agonists
Entocort 
Losec/Prilosec/Mopral
Nexium
Atacand (candesartan)
Betaloc (metoprolol)
Crestor (rosuvastatin)
Exanta (ximelagatran) – withdrawn in 2006
Imdur (isosorbide mononitrate)
Inderal (propranolol)
Lexxel (enalapril/felodipine)
Logimax (felodipine/metoprolol)
Nif-Ten (atenlol/nifedipine)
Plendil (felodipine)
Ramace (ramipril)
Seloken ZOK/Toprol-XL (extended-release metoprolol)
Tenoretic (atenolol/chlorthalidone)
Tenormin (atenolol)
Unimax (felodipine/ramipril)
Xylocard (lidocaine)
Zestoretic (lisinopril/hydrochlorothiazide)
Zestril (lisinopril)
Accolate (zafirlukast)
Bambec (bambuterol)
Bricanyl (terbutaline)
Oxis (formoterol)
Pulmicort/Budecort (inhaled budesonide)
Rhinocort/Budecort NT (intranasal budesonide)
Symbicort (budesonide/formoterol)
Arimidex (anastrozole)
Casodex (bicalutamide)
Faslodex (fulvestrant)
Iressa (gefitinib)
Nolvadex (tamoxifen)
Tomudex (raltitrexed)
Zoladex (goserelin)
Seroquel (quetiapine)
Vivalan (viloxazine)
Zomig (zolmitriptan)
Carbocaine (mepivacaine)
Chirocaine (levobupivacaine)
Diprivan (propofol)
EMLA (lidocaine/prilocaine)
Marcaine/Sensorcaine (bupivacaine)
Naropin (ropivacaine)
Xylocaine (lidocaine)
Apatef/Cefotan (cefotetan)
Merrem/Meronem (meropenem)

The list could be made much longer.

I haven't even got to GlaxoSmithKline, the third largest Pharmaceutical company in the world. A British company (makers of Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Avandia...). Anyone heard of Bayer? It is a German company.

Sanofi-Aventis? The fourth largest pharmaceutical company in the world is French. You might recognize a few of their products such as Plavix, Allegra, Ambien, Avapro, Ketex, Lovenox...

As for breakthroughs, the 2005 Nobel Prize was awarded to two Australian Physicians for their work with the bacterium Helicobacter pylori and its role in gastritis and peptic ulcer disease. The 2000 Nobel prize award went to Two Americans and a Swede for their work on neurotransmitters and memory. One of those Americans studied at Cambridge and the Univeristy of Amsterdam. (The award for medicine is shared with physiology)

I wouldn't act as though this is some contest where we win hands down. Like all academic studies, it is a collaborative effort and other nations most certainly do their part (I'd say for their size the British have certainly done more than their share).

Moreover the United States spends roughly 13.5% of the GDP on healthcare whereas Britain spends around 7% and Australia around 8%, both providing universal coverage. I love hearing so-called fiscal conservatives argue for higher spending.

 
 

[_JS]

Leviticus 20, 8-16 gets pretty "demanding" from the big guy himself, God.  Can you live up to them?

Mosaic law. Why was Stephen stoned to death and became the first Christian martyr? Did Christ participate in stoning adulterers? Was Jesus defying his Father?

I referenced Christianity simply to quell the idea I should make him become one because I believe it's the right thing to do analogus to making me pay for what HE believes is the right thing to do("Why don't you keep your hands out of my pockets, and I'll refrain from trying to convert you to Christianity"), was the quote in context.

I realize the context, but find it interesting that you separate the two. Shouldn't Christian belief guide one's economic principles as well?

So why the frell do you ask me why I'm bringing the point up, the blurring of Christianity & Capitalism, the blurring of practicing religion and practicing domestic policy making??

I'm not saying you brought the point up, I brought the point up. I'm saying, "why not?"

LOL.....EXCUSE ME?  You're getting me confused with folks who promote Universal Health Care, Affirmative Action/Quotas, Tax paying subsidizing for illegal immigrants & their families, cradle to grave Governmental intervention, if not control

No, I'm not confused at all. UP is a Libertarian who believes in the freedom of individuals. You are a conservative who believes in some freedom, but not at the espense of your conservative social ideals. No need to be so defensive, I wasn't making a judgement on whether that was good or bad.

Your actions as an individual, is what God looks at, and likely what you're judged on.  When you combine individual acts with others, THAT is what influences both community & society.  Individual acts are what influence society, but to focus your priorities & actions on trying to influence society misses the entire mark of what it is to be a Christian, IMHO

Love thy neighbor, do unto the least of these, the establishing of the Church by Peter and Paul - you don't see how man is guided to mutual service and dialogue with his brethren through society? To focus your priorities and actions on only yourself is the misguided view here. What of family? Community? Did Paul focus only on himself?

That's because neither the Bible, nor Jesus, nor God are bringing forth any form of an economic plan to support or follow.  Which ironically, neither have I.  You seem to be the only one pulling that ome

I never said Jesus did. I said that we are given certain Christian notions and I see no reason why we cannot incorporate them into our society. Otherwise, why have a government? What is the purpose of government if not to help those who cannot help themselves? As an aside, your statement is not ironic at all.

And you'll note that YOU are not being prevented from doing anything in YOUR power, with YOUR money and YOUR resources, do help anyone in any way YOU wish.

Wow, what a bold statement. Actually, what a typical free-market capitalist statement. Cold and without purpose.

Again I say: If they [the government] can do some good for society (and I think they can) then that should be pursued. I don't believe the unemployed should be left out in the cold as an "incentive" to find work. Nor do I believe that the aged should be left to work at Wal-Mart or a convenience store once they have reached an age where they should be able to retire.

Otherwise, why have a government? To kill people in foreign countries? To prop up horrible dictatorships? To support horribly oppressive institutions for decades and even over a century? If that is the purpose then why bother? Shouldn't we aspire to something better than that?

Then by all means, lobby your congress critters to amend the Constitution to prompt the Government to provide precisely that, if that is the "will of the people"

You imply that I haven't.

[Plane]

"If they [the government] can do some good for society (and I think they can) then that should be pursued. I don't believe the unemployed should be left out in the cold as an "incentive" to find work. Nor do I believe that the aged should be left to work at Wal-Mart or a convenience store once they have reached an age where they should be able to retire. "

   Should the government be preferred when thre is an equally good non government choice for getting the good done?


     Sometimes it seems that the government is preferred even when there is a better non government choice.

[sirs]

Should the government be preferred when thre is an equally good non government choice for getting the good done?    Sometimes it seems that the government is preferred even when there is a better non government choice.

I think that stems from the notion that the Government can do the non-better choice for more folks.  It's kinda dovetails with the Universal Health care and their proponets.  They'll be happier if everyone is covered, even if the care is significantly reduced, and waiting tomes for non-emergent operative procedures can be months, if not years.   Just as long as everyone is covered, and damn the repercussions

[Brassmask]

I think that stems from the notion that the Government can do the non-better choice for more folks.  It's kinda dovetails with the Universal Health care and their proponets.  They'll be happier if everyone is covered, even if the care is significantly reduced, and waiting tomes for non-emergent operative procedures can be months, if not years.   Just as long as everyone is covered, and damn the repercussions

You know, you're such a hypocrit. 

The best way to get lower prices is to buy in volume.  You have a fleet of cars and you're going to be buying oil changes all the time, you set up a deal with the local oil change guy that is a reduced rate of his regular $30 that he charges for an oil change.  That makes utter sense to you, doesn't it?  Yes, HE will lose some money per deal but he makes more money because he'll be doing more oil changes.  Right?  What's he going to do differently than he did before?  Use one can of oil too few to try and make up that little bit off that you negotiated?  Maybe, but if one car gets screwed up from lack of oil, then he's going to lose your business and he's back to square one.  Why bother?

More over, since he has more cars to change the oil in, maybe he helps the economy and he hires another guy to catch the overflow.

Now, please tell me why that can't work with the government acting for all Americans with the health care system?

The American People buying insurance in bulk.  Nobody's FORCED to use the Universal Health Care Insurance.  You can still use whatever high priced insurance you want.

You're all for Bush having $400B to kill lots of people but not $34-69B a year to keep people, healthy and alive.  What's up with that, christian?

So, here we are

[sirs]

You know, you're such a hypocrit. 

Takes one to know one I guess

The best way to get lower prices is to buy in volume.  You have a fleet of cars and you're going to be buying oil changes all the time, you set up a deal with the local oil change guy that is a reduced rate of his regular $30 that he charges for an oil change.  That makes utter sense to you, doesn't it?  ....  More over, since he has more cars to change the oil in, maybe he helps the economy and he hires another guy to catch the overflow.
Now, please tell me why that can't work with the government acting for all Americans with the health care system?

Quick dose of reality, Healthcare is not car care.  The providing a service is NOT equal to selling a car or maintaining a car, and neither are Health care providers equal to some Used Car Salesman.  Are you now advocating Universal Car Care Coverage??

[Lanya]

The VA buys meds in volume so it can get better bargains.    Surely you're not against this?
That is what some congressmen are proposing we do for Medicare.  That is a good idea. 

[Plane]

Volume buying on some drugs might work well.

Wall Mart is improveing the deal on generics .

But if there is a loss n each sale volume is not the answer.

[Lanya]

Plane, every country that has universal health care gets drugs at a bargain rate because they say, OK, we need X Purple Pills for the year 2008. And then they bargain for them.  A whole country bargains with your company to buy medicine? That's a great sale. You know how much to make, you have job security, you have no ad budget in that country---no need to.  Your company saves money there, the country saves money, people are able to afford medicine --->allows them not to get sicker--->allows them not to end up in ICU--->>saves money in the end.