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[Brassmask]

Quick dose of reality, Healthcare is not car care.  The providing a service is NOT equal to selling a car or maintaining a car, and neither are Health care providers equal to some Used Car Salesman.  Are you now advocating Universal Car Care Coverage??

This diversionary reply is proof that you don't want to discuss the merits of universal health care.

Single payer makes us, the customer, equal to the industry and not subject to their demands.  If they have one huge customer that demands lower rates then we'll get lower rates.

[sirs]

This diversionary reply is proof that you don't want to discuss the merits of universal health care.  Single payer makes us, the customer, equal to the industry and not subject to their demands.  If they have one huge customer that demands lower rates then we'll get lower rates.

Your definition of diversion is none the less an ignorance of current reality.  I simply need look no further than those countries that do provide Universal healthcare, and continuously thank God I live in America.  Amazing how you can deplore the government being in control of so many aspects of life, and yet so ready to roll over and hand them over a huge junk of it.     

[Brassmask]

You act like the government is some disconnected group with no controls on it.

You and I are supposed to be the government.  Unfortunately, we have to look at it as a second job since those elected tend to think no one is looking and lose sight of what they're supposed to be doing.

You act like your congressman will be deciding who gets a band aid and who doesn't when the reality is YOU will decide if you need a bandaid or a shot or a doctor visit or whatever and you just go get it.

You have to wait in line NOW when you go to the doctor generally.  You won't see a diff.

[sirs]

You act like the government is some disconnected group with no controls on it.

I guess that depends who's in office now, doesn't it.  If it's someone with an R, well, the country's going to go down in flames.  If they have a D, well then it'll be our savior.  Especially if his 1st name is Bill, right?

You act like your congressman will be deciding who gets a band aid and who doesn't when the reality is YOU will decide if you need a bandaid or a shot or a doctor visit or whatever and you just go get it.

Wrong Brass, it'll be Government bureacrats and layer upon layer of Government employees hired/appointed by other Government employees, making the decisions.  I realize the effort to equate us with Government, but it won't be "us" deciding when we get seen, what tests will be payed for, what procedures will be approved, what actions will be re-imbursed.  And in the end, after the service is provided, still the potential remains that the person(s) who provided the service will NOT get payed for it. 

You have to wait in line NOW when you go to the doctor generally.  You won't see a diff.

You're trying to make a joke, right?

[BT]

Let's see how Arnold's plan for Universal Healthcare unfolds.

States should be the incubator for any national program anyways.

[sirs]

Let's see how Arnold's plan for Universal Healthcare unfolds.  States should be the incubator for any national program anyways.

A state with an already horrendously poor borrowing rating, is going to borrow more money to "pay off debt" we still have, and going to raise taxes on Dr's & Hospitals to pay for universal health care including upon illegal immigrants.  What a great incentive for Dr's to come here or those here to stay     

[_JS]

I simply need look no further than those countries that do provide Universal healthcare, and continuously thank God I live in America.

You mean like Ireland, whose people are wealthier than Americans?

You mean like Sweden, whose people live much longer, are more productive, and have much more leisure time?

You mean like Norway, whose people have more purchasing power and live longer than Americans?

You mean like Germany, France, Netherlands, and Canada who all have higher life expectancies?

And guess what, they pay less[/i] for healthcare than we do.

Yes, that is one pathetic argument you have there.

[sirs]

You mean like Ireland,  like Sweden, like Norway, like Germany, France, Netherlands, and Canada...And guess what, they pay less[/i] for healthcare than we do.

Yes, that is one pathetic argument you have there.

Yea, those countries who don't have near the GDP we have, that have no where near the other domestic & foreign expenses we have, those countries that don't have near the freedoms we have, those countries that don't have near the llines and waiting periods for elective and non-emergent procedures that we have.  Yea, and guess what, we pay more in just about everything else than they do.  I won't even mention the military budget.

So yea, like those

[BT]

A state with an already horrendously poor borrowing rating, is going to borrow more money to "pay off debt" we still have, and going to raise taxes on Dr's & Hospitals to pay for universal health care including upon illegal immigrants.  What a great incentive for Dr's to come here or those here to stay     

If that is the way Arnold laid out the program, so be it.

If it works, then good on him. If iit doesn't we have an american style track record to look back on.

I still say it should be funded locally by sales tax.

[Plane]

I simply need look no further than those countries that do provide Universal healthcare, and continuously thank God I live in America.

You mean like Ireland, whose people are wealthier than Americans?

You mean like Sweden, whose people live much longer, are more productive, and have much more leisure time?

You mean like Norway, whose people have more purchasing power and live longer than Americans?

You mean like Germany, France, Netherlands, and Canada who all have higher life expectancies?

And guess what, they pay less[/i] for healthcare than we do.

Yes, that is one pathetic argument you have there.

Is there one, amoung these contries, that has more Americans wanting in ,than it has citizens of its own wanting to become Americans?

This is a test that America passes pretty well but why?

[Plane]

I simply need look no further than those countries that do provide Universal healthcare, and continuously thank God I live in America.

You mean like Ireland, whose people are wealthier than Americans?

You mean like Sweden, whose people live much longer, are more productive, and have much more leisure time?

You mean like Norway, whose people have more purchasing power and live longer than Americans?

You mean like Germany, France, Netherlands, and Canada who all have higher life expectancies?

And guess what, they pay less[/i] for healthcare than we do.

Yes, that is one pathetic argument you have there.

If these programs work for a single generaton or even two that is not suffecint , if a uniersal health care system were to fail in the third or fourth generation it would be worse than if they had failed sooner, I am glad that the experiment is being made , but it strikes me as a case of a perpetual motion machine that surprises everyone when it runs down.

How pasing all the money through government beaurocrcys causes increased effeciencys mystifys me , I am a civil servant myself and when our chain of command wants to increase effeciency they attempt to emulate private enterprise.

[_JS]

Yea, those countries who don't have near the GDP we have

They don't have 300 million people. You did have to take math didn't you?

that have no where near the other domestic & foreign expenses we have

Do you mean nominal expenses, because again that's just a dumb argument? If you mean as a percentage (say of GDP) then I'd like to see your evidence of that. I mean real evidence Sirs, because honestly you've lacked evidence in many of the previous debates we've had and I want to see something real this time. I'll grant you that they spend less on healthcare than we do, but hey that was a part of my point!

those countries that don't have near the freedoms we have

Name a freedom you don't have in one of those countries. Start naming them Sirs. I want to read a list and keep in mind I'm from Germany. I want to know the horrible oppression that takes place in those nations. I look forward to that list.

those countries that don't have near the llines and waiting periods for elective and non-emergent procedures that we have

So? Amazingly they live longer without them. Why is that?

Yea, and guess what, we pay more in just about everything else than they do.

As a percentage of the total budget? Well Sirs, let me help you with Math. There is a total of 100%. We cannot possibly pay more of everything in every category than all of those countries lest our total exceed 100%. Try again, and this time think before typing.

(Perhaps if we spent more on Mathematics education).

I won't even mention the military budget.

And it is doing us a hell of a lot of good in Iraq. Why should Sweden pay more than they do on military spending? The UK is our ally, but you badmouth them as well. Nice.

Daft arguments. Come back with evidence. I look forward to your list and your evidence.

[_JS]

Is there one, amoung these contries, that has more Americans wanting in ,than it has citizens of its own wanting to become Americans?

Meaningless. Americans in general aren't very migratory.

If these programs work for a single generaton or even two that is not suffecint , if a uniersal health care system were to fail in the third or fourth generation it would be worse than if they had failed sooner, I am glad that the experiment is being made , but it strikes me as a case of a perpetual motion machine that surprises everyone when it runs down.

The UK has had the NHS since 1948. Next year will be its third generation.

How pasing all the money through government beaurocrcys causes increased effeciencys mystifys me , I am a civil servant myself and when our chain of command wants to increase effeciency they attempt to emulate private enterprise.

Having worked in both it really doesn't surprise me.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Is there one, amoung these contries, that has more Americans wanting in ,than it has citizens of its own wanting to become Americans?

This is a test that America passes pretty well but why?
=======================================================
This has little or nothing to do with healthcare. People who immigrate are nearly all young and very ambitious people, and in great health. Heathcare is probably the last thing on their minds.



I don't think that the difference between Swedes, Norwegians and Irish who want to become US citizens is all that different from Amenricans who seek to become Swedes, Norskis or Irish. They are way down the list of prospective immigrants, in any case.

[sirs]

Is there one, amoung these contries, that has more Americans wanting in ,than it has citizens of its own wanting to become Americans?

Meaningless. Americans in general aren't very migratory.

Great deflection Js.  Plane demonstrates an ominous comparison, but you brush it right under the rug.  So, only Americans are not very migratory, and yet the flocks of folks we get all seem to come here vs those other heavenly locales you mentioned.  Why is that?  Tunnel Vision?  Stircter (read; less free) immigration standards/requirements?

I won't even mention the military budget.[/qote]

And it is doing us a hell of a lot of good in Iraq. Why should Sweden pay more than they do on military spending?

Because our constitution mandates a military defense.  I doubt very seriously Sweden could repel any agreesive take over attempt by some other hostile nation, if that were to ever occur.  It does NOT mandate universal healthcare

Name a freedom you don't have in one of those countries. ...I want to know the horrible oppression that takes place in those nations

[/color]

Somehow, not surprisingly unfortunately, we went to my reference as not as many freedoms as the U.S. to "horrible oppression" by all these other countries you cited.  I tell you what Js, when you can start representing my comments accurately & honestly, I'll be more inclined to provide greater detail to my responses.