Author Topic: Simply Unprecedented  (Read 1994 times)

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BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2011, 02:35:12 AM »
Ok, I'm seeing a brief filed......so.......where's the example of (a lawyer for) congress actually arguing a case before SCOTUS again

When is the last time the President of the United States argued a case before SCOTUS?

You could easily argue every time the Justice Dept, and in particular, the AG argues/defends established law.  The President doesn't get to pick and choose which laws he's going to enforce, and which ones the Justice Dept can turn a blind eye to.

They just did the same thing with the New Black Panther Voters Rights case.

Certainly Administrations for decades have ignored immigration law.

I would suspect EPA related laws are prosecuted less vigorously during some administrations than others.






sirs

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2011, 02:53:59 AM »
Ok, I'm seeing a brief filed......so.......where's the example of (a lawyer for) congress actually arguing a case before SCOTUS again

When is the last time the President of the United States argued a case before SCOTUS?

You could easily argue every time the Justice Dept, and in particular, the AG argues/defends established law.  The President doesn't get to pick and choose which laws he's going to enforce, and which ones the Justice Dept can turn a blind eye to.[/b]

They just did the same thing with the New Black Panther Voters Rights case.

Yea, and they got raked over the coals for it


Certainly Administrations for decades have ignored immigration law.

And they've been rhetorically raked over the coals for that too.  Just because they get away with it, doesn't make it right, or your rationalizations effective

So, back to square 1.......where are these examples of lawyers representing congress arguing a case in front of the Supremes,  Congress of the U.S. (representing established law x, vs .......Joe Smoe?

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 03:11:40 AM »
Quote
Just because they get away with it, doesn't make it right, or your rationalizations effective

What rationalizations? I expressed my opinions as to motivations. Why you think that is a defense of Obama or a personal attack on you is beyond my comprehension.

Quote
So, back to square 1.......where are these examples of lawyers representing congress arguing a case in front of the Supremes,  Congress of the U.S. (representing established law x, vs .......Joe Smoe?

asked and answered



sirs

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 03:33:21 AM »
Quote
Just because they get away with it, doesn't make it right, or your rationalizations effective

What rationalizations? I expressed my opinions as to motivations. Why you think that is a defense of Obama or a personal attack on you is beyond my comprehension.

Just call it a noted, discernable pattern, as of late.  and the rationalizations were how apparently shrewd a political decision its supposed to be, by Obama.  Completely ignoring just how wrong it is for such a unprecedented decree


Quote
So, back to square 1.......where are these examples of lawyers representing congress arguing a case in front of the Supremes,  Congress of the U.S. (representing established law x, vs .......Joe Smoe?

asked and answered

Not really.  You posted one reference to merely a brief being filed.  Still to this point, no examples of U.S. Congress vs ... whatever.  And let's compliment that unanswered question....When's the last time a sitting President publically told his Justice Dept NOT to defend any current established law of the land??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 04:05:42 AM »
Quote
Just call it a noted, discernable pattern, as of late.  and the rationalizations were how apparently shrewd a political decision its supposed to be, by Obama.  Completely ignoring just how wrong it is for such a unprecedented decree

Where did i give the politics of the decision a value?

As for the last time a Justice department refused to defend a law?

January 26, 2005

Solicitor General Says Government 'Does Not Have a Viable Argument to Advance in the Statute's Defense'

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@aclu.org
      

ACLU and Drug Policy Groups Sue Over Censorship of Advertisements Criticizing ""War on Drugs""

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Department of Justice has notified Congress that it will not defend a law prohibiting the display of marijuana policy reform ads in public transit systems. The controversial statute was recently ruled unconstitutional by a federal district court.

So I guess it  wasn't unprecedented after all.

http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform/justice-department-refuses-defend-congress-legal-battle-over-law-censoring-marijuana

update:

More dastardly evidence of an imperial presidency.

    * George W. Bush (ACLU et al., v. Norman Y. Mineta – ”The U.S. Department of Justice has notified Congress that it will not defend a law prohibiting the display of marijuana policy reform ads in public transit systems.”);
    * Bill Clinton (Dickerson v. United States – “Because the Miranda decision is of constitutional dimension, Congress may not legislate a contrary rule unless this Court were to overrule Miranda…. Section 3501 cannot constitutionally authorize the admission of a statement that would be excluded under this Court’s Miranda cases.”);
    * George H. W.  Bush (Metro Broadcasting v. Federal Communications Commission);
    * Ronald Reagan (INS v. Chadha – “Chadha then filed a petition for review of the deportation order in the Court of Appeals, and the INS joined him in arguing that ? 244(c)(2) is unconstitutional.”)



« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 04:12:44 AM by BT »

sirs

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 04:27:14 AM »
So they didn't defend laws that were already deemed unconstitutional, by a Judge?  Wow.  and that's different than this how again?  Oh yea, no Judge has made that ruling.  The "ruling" came from a sitting President

Keep throwing me those softballs, Bt.  I'll keep hittenthem outahere
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 04:50:02 AM »
So they didn't defend laws that were already deemed unconstitutional, by a Judge?  Wow.  and that's different than this how again?  Oh yea, no Judge has made that ruling.  The "ruling" came from a sitting President

Keep throwing me those softballs, Bt.  I'll keep hittenthem outahere

Not so fast slugger. In the Reagan case they argued against the law in question.

Interesting enough, both the House and Senate argued in front of SCOTUS in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Naturalization_Service_v._Chadha




sirs

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2011, 01:38:27 PM »
President Obama, the self-proclaimed ?constitutional scholar,? along with the nation?s top lawyer, Attorney General Eric Holder, announced Wednesday that they couldn?t come up with a ?reasonable? argument for limiting marriage to a man and a woman as God, Congress, state legislatures, and the majority of voters intend.

Obama?s decision to stop defending the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman for purposes of federal law, is:

?a concession to his leftist base;
?a diversion from his economic and foreign policy disasters;
?a slap shot at Congress as a co-equal branch of government;
?telling Republicans they can?t walk and chew gum if they defend DOMA;
?what he meant by ?fundamentally transforming the United States of America;? or
?all of the above.

Obama?s position on DOMA depends on whose political support he?s seeking. According to ABC News: When he began his campaign for U.S. Senate, he told a group called Independent Voters of Illinois -- Independent Precinct Organization that he supported DOMA. He then switched to an anti-DOMA. position on Feb. 11, 2004, as the March 2004 Illinois Democratic primary drew near. According to Obama?s staff, the Illinois Democrat changed positions mid-campaign because he heard from gay friends how hurtful DOMA was.

DOMA is ?an abhorrent law,? Obama wrote in his letter posted on a Chicago gay and lesbian Web site on February 11, 2004. But he didn?t call God?s law ?abhorrent? at Rick Warren?s ?Saddleback Presidential Candidate?s Forum in 2008:

?I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian -- for me -- for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God's in the mix;? he told Warren when asked to define marriage.

Apparently, God is out of ?the mix.? Obama is ?grappling? with his personal position on marriage, according to White House Press Secretary Jay Carney at Wednesday?s press briefing.

Since Obama and Holder don?t like DOMA and don?t want to risk it being upheld if the courts apply the lowest level of constitutional review, called rational basis, they?re telling courts to make them defend DOMA under a heightened standard of review, which Holder won?t do because it?s too high of a hurdle.

According to Holder?s statement released Wednesday, two new DOMA lawsuits in the Second Circuit have thrown a legal curve the dynamic duo can?t handle:

?These new lawsuits, by contrast, will require the Department to take an affirmative position on the level of scrutiny that should be applied to DOMA Section 3 in a circuit without binding precedent on the issue. As described more fully below, the President and I have concluded that classifications based on sexual orientation warrant heightened scrutiny and that, as applied to same-sex couples legally married under state law, Section 3 of DOMA is unconstitutional.

Furthermore, pursuant to the President?s instructions, and upon further notification to Congress, I will instruct Department attorneys to advise courts in other pending DOMA litigation of the President's and my conclusions that a heightened standard should apply, that Section 3 is unconstitutional under that standard and that the Department will cease defense of Section 3.?

In his letter to House Speaker John Boehner on Wednesday, Holder cites to a 2004 11th Circuit case, Lofton v. Secretary of the Dep?t of Children & Family Servs. which he and Obama must not have read. The court upheld a Florida law prohibiting practicing homosexuals to adopt children. The court reviewed the law under the ?rational basis standard,? rather than heightened review, finding that ?the present case involves neither a fundamental right nor a suspect class.?

The court found it persuasive that ?all of our sister circuits that have considered the question have declined to treat homosexuals as a suspect class,? citing to rulings by the 4th, 5th,6th, 7th, D.C., Federal., 10th, and two by the 9th Circuit that homosexuals are not a ?suspect class;? therefore, heightened review does not apply.

If Obama and Holder believe that the judiciary is the final arbiter of constitutional claims, why are they ignoring rulings by nine out of the 12 circuit courts of appeal that have rejected their conclusion that heightened review is required?

And it gets more baffling. Even though the administration won?t defend DOMA?it will continue to ?enforce? it, according to Holder?s letter to Boehner, stating:

?Notwithstanding this determination, the President has informed me that Section 3 will continue to be enforced by the Executive Branch. To that end, the President has instructed Executive agencies to continue to comply with Section 3 of DOMA, consistent with the Executive?s obligation to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, unless and until Congress repeals Section 3 or the judicial branch renders a definitive verdict against the law?s constitutionality. This course of action respects the actions of the prior Congress that enacted DOMA, and it recognizes the judiciary as the final arbiter of the constitutional claims raised.?

Neither Obama nor Holder has explained how enforcing an ?unconstitutional? law complies with their oaths to defend the Constitution, or why they expect the heads of federal agencies, who also took an oath to defend the Constitution, to enforce a law their boss says is ?unconstitutional.?

If they?re serious about cutting spending, Republicans need to calculate the federal and state costs of extending benefits to ?married? homosexual couples. Judge Andrew Napolitano, Fox News? judicial analyst, said that the economic impact is ?so enormous it can?t even be quantified at this moment in time.?

According to an Obama 2008 campaign statement about families in a changing economy, he should be the last person undermining traditional marriage:

?Since 1960, the number of American children without fathers in their lives has quadrupled, from 6 million to more than 24 million. Children without fathers in their lives are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime, nine times more likely to drop out of school, and 20 times more likely to end up in prison.?

Count the cost. It means the wages of sin is debt.

Defending DOMA makes sense for all the right reasons: constitutionally, morally and fiscally. There are several outstanding pro bono public interest law firms that are lined up to assist Republicans.

Obama thinks it?s easier to grapple with God over marriage than with a federal judge.

Republicans and Democrats should know better. There?s a bigger judgment day than the one in 2012.


Simply Indefensible
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2011, 01:26:48 AM »
Think of this as a budget saving measure.

Congress passes laws that can then be entirely ignored .

If Congress is superflous it can be eliminated from the budget , that is gonna be a major saveing of hard earned taxes.

BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2011, 01:34:46 AM »
Think of this as a budget saving measure.

Congress passes laws that can then be entirely ignored .

If Congress is superflous it can be eliminated from the budget , that is gonna be a major saveing of hard earned taxes.

Hmmm. Perhaps if the constitutionality of a law is challenged the authors must pay court costs if they lose.

Plane

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 01:43:10 AM »
Think of this as a budget saving measure.

Congress passes laws that can then be entirely ignored .

If Congress is superflous it can be eliminated from the budget , that is gonna be a major saveing of hard earned taxes.

Hmmm. Perhaps if the constitutionality of a law is challenged the authors must pay court costs if they lose.

When a law is passed by the legislature and signed by the cheif executive and then is totally nullified by a cheif executive because of his opinion what we have is Andrew Jackson again, gone more than halfway to being a king.

By the way the proper and usual method for finding testing constitionality is in the courts especially the US Supreme Court. I don't think that the Supreme court is nearly as expensive as the congress but if we don't need it anymore lets fire it too just to save the bit.

BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 01:54:30 AM »
Quote
When a law is passed by the legislature and signed by the cheif executive and then is totally nullified by a cheif executive because of his opinion what we have is Andrew Jackson again, gone more than halfway to being a king.

The law has not been nullified. Justice is still enforcing Sec. 3

Quote
By the way the proper and usual method for finding testing constitionality is in the courts especially the US Supreme Court. I don't think that the Supreme court is nearly as expensive as the congress but if we don't need it anymore lets fire it too just to save the bit.

And the Supreme Court will decide it's constitutionality. Justices actions does not change the courts roles


Plane

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 02:18:43 AM »
Do you mean to say that President Obama's statements re:DOMA do nothing to reduce its enforcement and do not frustrate the will of the congress and the people who elected the congress?

I wonder why then he is makeing such a noise ,it is not , is it as if he had some thing to distract us from?

BT

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 07:36:49 AM »
Quote
Do you mean to say that President Obama's statements re:DOMA do nothing to reduce its enforcement and do not frustrate the will of the congress and the people who elected the congress?

Yes

Quote
I wonder why then he is makeing such a noise ,it is not , is it as if he had some thing to distract us from?

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Simply Unprecedented
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2011, 12:46:16 PM »
The Supremes are not very efficient in doing their jobs. This whole dispute has gone on for a very long time.

Not defending the law is not the same as not enforcing the law, by the way.

No one is harmed by Adam marrying Steve. No one is harmed if Steve can visit Adam when he is dying in a hospital.

It is pretty obvious what "equal before the law" means.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."