Author Topic: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!  (Read 2196 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« on: February 23, 2011, 09:56:56 PM »
I am watching a real life game play out and I dont know which team I am cheering for.

There seems to be an automatic thought that things must
get better when you get rid of a rat...but do they?

Great....great....great... the wicked old Murbarak is out...

But if a hardline non-democratic civil right violator like the
Mullahs in Iran replaces Mubarak....who should I have rooted for?

Now we have Khadaffi up to bat in Libya....sure the guy's a rat.....
and first impulse is to hope he is toppled

But today Libya's deputy foreign minister told E.U. ambassadors
that al-Qaeda has set up an Islamic emirate in eastern Libya,
headed by a former U.S. prisoner at Guantanamo Bay......
again who does one root for when both choices are horrible?



« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 09:48:42 AM by Christians4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Kramer

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2011, 10:08:05 PM »
and under who's watch?

Henny

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 12:40:47 AM »
I am watching a real life game play out and I dont know which team I am cheering for.
There seems to be an automatic thought that things must get better when you get rid of a rat...but do they?
Great....great....great... the wicked old Murbarak is out...
But if a hardline non-democratic civil right violator like the Mullahs in Iran replaces Mubarak....who should I have rooted for?
Now we have Khadaffi up to bat in Libya....sure the guy's a rat.....and first impulse is to hope he is toppled
But today Libya's deputy foreign minister told E.U. ambassadors that al-Qaeda has set up an Islamic emirate
in eastern Libya, headed by a former U.S. prisoner at Guantanamo Bay......again who does one root for when
both choices are horrible?

This is a very important moment in Middle Eastern history for sure. I am not worried about Egypt (as we've already discussed) because the population at large is highly secular. I believe they are looking for REAL change. What Egypt does will impact and influence the entire region. I believe the world needs to watch and advise very carefully (and of course, it would be bad if the people perceived that the West is pushing their agenda on their heads).

Libya is a totally different problem. The people are very simple and have been living in the dark ages under Qadaffi. As an example, my husband was consulting in Libya a few years back and had to stay there for 2 months. Even in the hotels they only had 4 or 5 television channels which were all State controlled. Internet and everything else also tightly controlled. Qadaffi has successfully cut them off from the world for the most part. Now Qadaffi will be ousted and you have an incredibly wealthy country. What happens next? Do we get another UAE or another Saudi Arabia?

BT

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 12:54:22 AM »
Quote
again who does one root for when
both choices are horrible?

Are the choices really that horrible?

Back the dictator or encourage the voice of the people even if they choose a path not to our liking?

Seems the choice isn't ours it's theirs. And they can choose whatever level of freedom they want, much like we think we do.

Best we can do is minimize the damage to our country either way.

What damage can be done to us? They can destabilize our economy by refusing to sell us oil or jacking the price to the point it hurts.

We minimize that by developing other sources and lessening our need for theirs.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 09:55:52 AM »
I am not worried about Egypt (as we've already discussed) because the population at large is highly secular.

But wasn't that also the case of Iran before the Mullahs took over?

The people are very simple and have been living in the dark ages under Qadaffi. As an example, my husband was consulting in Libya a few years back and had to stay there for 2 months. Even in the hotels they only had 4 or 5 television channels which were all State controlled.

My Moroccan coworker told me that Libya is a disaster.
he said at least Saddam had decent schools....
He said Libyans are almost incapable of most basic skills.
He said almost all carpenters in Libya are Moroccan
And when the Moroccan carpenters leave to go home they
cant take more than $2000 out of their bank accounts.....
so to be able to get funds out of Libya when they leave
he said some buy jewelry in Libya....then go home and sell the jewelry.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Henny

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 10:22:24 AM »

But wasn't that also the case of Iran before the Mullahs took over?

I don't think so - there was a national referndum voted on to become an Islamic Republic. Ironically, it was a democratic decision.


My Moroccan coworker told me that Libya is a disaster.
he said at least Saddam had decent schools....
He said Libyans are almost incapable of most basic skills.
He said almost all carpenters in Libya are Moroccan
And when the Moroccan carpenters leave to go home they
cant take more than $2000 out of their bank accounts.....
so to be able to get funds out of Libya when they leave
he said some buy jewelry in Libya....then go home and sell the jewelry.

It really is that sad. I wonder how they will work all of this out when the revolution is over? I think the best chance the country has is for expat Libyans to return home with experience in the West... to help rebuild the country.

My husband's memory of Libya will forever be tarnished even more by the fact that he contracted dysentery while he was there - eating in their "5 star" hotel. He was sick for a LONG time, but it is really surprising; even in INDIA you can generally feel safe as long as you stick to 5-star hotels for your meals and drink bottled water.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 11:24:34 AM »
Henny I am a total wimp on stomach trouble away from home.
I got sick in Jamaica
Several years ago my niece went on a group trip to India to meet Mother Teresa
She actually got to meet Mother Teresa and drover Mother Teresa in her car.
Wow...what a great memory to have in your memory bank.
But one of the guys in her group got deathly ill in India
He had to fly home in a near emergency status.
If I ever go to these places I may just have to pack Granola bars and drink Coke
Which is ok....I am known as person that can do without food....I eat like a bird.

ps: I thought I had heard Iran was very secular under the Shah and women
dressed western wearing mini-skirts....looked like models....and then everything
changed once the Mullahs came to power.....I could be wrong.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 12:00:37 PM »
Are the choices really that horrible?

Umm I guess that's still to be determined
But if history is any guide.....yeah I would think the choices are horrible.
If the choice is Qaddafi or al-Qaida wouldn't you say the choices are horrible?
I guess at least Qaddafi is not very expansionist....still two very bad choices.

Back the dictator or encourage the voice of the people even if they choose a path not to our liking?

But is it really "the people" if thugs take advantage of a power vaccum come to power?
What if Iran is funding/helping/arming al-Qaida to take over Libya and they do?
Why is it the enemy can do this, but you think the US should stand by and watch?


Seems the choice isn't ours it's theirs. And they can choose whatever level of
freedom they want, much like we think we do.

Sure the choice is theirs, but are you saying we should exit the Middle East
and leave it to our sworn enemies like Iran and al-Qaida to influence and take
over one by one? And in most cases it's not "much like we do". We have had
a democracy for longer than any of them. Democracy isn't having one election
one time, electing a thug that becomes repressive that never allows another
election.

Best we can do is minimize the damage to our country either way.

And that is not "cut and run" leaving a vital area for the world's economy to
be dominated by Iran, al-Qaida, and our enemies.

What damage can be done to us? They can destabilize our economy by refusing to
sell us oil or jacking the price to the point it hurts.

What you do suggest BT if Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain,
and others are taken over by radicals that hate the West along with
Iran and just say they wont sell us any oil? Sure you're gonna say
"well they cant do that because they need the money"...but say they
do....what would you do? I've been wanting to ask you this.....
Would you allow the western world economies to collapse or would
you do whatever is necessary to prevent that? Are you, are the
American people going to stand by and watch the western economies
collapse or are they going to "ok" an invasion of Saudi and/or Kuwait
oil fields (which logistically would be fairly easy) to keep the Western
economies afloat? To me...honestly BT IMO you have way too much of
a "defeatist" attitude...."oh well what can we do?"...."Oh well
if they wanna screw us...well I guess we stand by and watch"

F-That! We gotta do what we gotta do!

We minimize that by developing other sources and lessening our need for theirs

We are many years away from any real replacement from fossil fuels.
What would you suggest for next week? next month? if this happens?
If massive depression or invasion is your only choice which do you choose?
For the sake of argument if those are the only choices...which BT?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 12:32:00 PM »
Quote
We are many years away from any real replacement from fossil fuels.

The OPEC Oil Embargo was 38 years ago. Not like we haven't seen this coming and had time to prepare for it.

Quote
We are many years away from any real replacement from fossil fuels.
What would you suggest for next week? next month? if this happens?
If massive depression or invasion is your only choice which do you choose?
For the sake of argument if those are the only choices...which BT?

It might be cheaper in capital (human and otherwise) to start liquefying coal.

I'm just not sure it is worth killing someone just so we can drive to the mall for under $3 a gallon.

Maybe i'm just getting old and tired.

But if we must invade i guess the first nation we invade is Israel to force a two state solution to that festering mess.




Henny

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 03:36:31 PM »
Henny I am a total wimp on stomach trouble away from home.
I got sick in Jamaica
Several years ago my niece went on a group trip to India to meet Mother Teresa
She actually got to meet Mother Teresa and drover Mother Teresa in her car.
Wow...what a great memory to have in your memory bank.
But one of the guys in her group got deathly ill in India
He had to fly home in a near emergency status.
If I ever go to these places I may just have to pack Granola bars and drink Coke
Which is ok....I am known as person that can do without food....I eat like a bird.

ps: I thought I had heard Iran was very secular under the Shah and women
dressed western wearing mini-skirts....looked like models....and then everything
changed once the Mullahs came to power.....I could be wrong.

CU4, I went to India last year and was terrified (although excited to go in other ways). But I did stick to 5-star hotel food and was super careful - plus, I was taking Flagyll in advance, just to be cautious (the antibiotic against stomach bacteria). All of that preparation and caution, though, was no good when it came to how my stomach reacted to the spices/pepper added to their foods. I felt like my stomach was on fire most of the time. But yeah... the risks are there. Still a great trip!

You are right about how the women used to dress in Iran - but as I've read, in Iran women's dress was how they expressed affluence. Still, a huge majority of the people supported Khomeni from the very beginning and believed he was the best guy to take over the country. I don't think they ever realized how it would all end up, though. It's one thing to embrace faith, but quite another the level of extremism they got.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 03:48:47 PM »
Maybe i'm just getting old and tired.

some days me too!
but most days no
the getting older I hate is the aches/pains that used to go away but dont go away now
which right now are my shoulder and feet...still holding out hope for both
plus i need that lense replacement for my eyes
getting two implants in my mouth
damn BT....why'd you bring this up...I am getting depressed!....lol
:D
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 04:23:47 PM »
Maybe i'm just getting old and tired.

some days me too!
but most days no
the getting older I hate is the aches/pains that used to go away but dont go away now
which right now are my shoulder and feet...still holding out hope for both
plus i need that lense replacement for my eyes
getting two implants in my mouth
damn BT....why'd you bring this up...I am getting depressed!....lol
:D

Have you been checked for diabetes?
My feet always ache or get colder when my blood sugar is high.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 04:36:43 PM »
Yeah...I've thought I was diabetic several times
my wonderful Dad died from complications of diabetes way back when
but each time they check....it's always...nope...no diabetes

my feet problems are plantar fasciitis pain & metatarsal pain
always took my feet for granted
to be honest....never really even thought about them
now i do every single day
i have been to numerous doctors
had conventional and unconventional treatments
i'm on a journey to find the answer
and i honestly believe i might solve the riddle....i am very persistent on this stuff
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 08:09:08 PM »


If the Saudis revolt, the world's in trouble

The fate of the global recovery rests on events in Riyadh

By Jeremy Warner

24 Feb 2011

Be careful what you wish for.

After an ambiguous start, Western leaders have broadly welcomed the wave of protest and revolutions sweeping North Africa and parts of the Middle East. But beneath the words of encouragement about people taking charge of their own destiny, there is a growing and vital concern, the security of our oil and gas supplies.

The West's complicity in supporting the autocratic regimes that characterise many of the big oil-exporting nations is in part explained by the fact that, whatever their sins, they did at least seem to provide stability in the energy markets. That stability, however, has been thrown up in the air by the wave of protest sweeping the region.

Initially, it was assumed that there was a difference between oil-poor Arab nations such as Tunisia and Egypt, where the uprisings have been as much about living standards as anything else, and the much richer Gulf states. That theory was swiftly proved wrong.

In Saudi Arabia, even King Abdullah's panicky decision to order another multi-billion-dollar splurge of spending on education, healthcare and infrastructure may not be enough to buy off the opposition. People seem to want something more precious than money: freedom.

Whatever happens, speculation about the possibility of major interruptions in supply has sent the already perky oil price bounding higher. At one point yesterday, Brent crude hit $120 a barrel, which in real terms is approaching the sort of peaks we saw in the 1970s.

That's making policymakers decidedly jumpy. Never mind the effect on inflation, which is already elevated, and the consequent implications for interest rates, by absorbing money which would normally be spent on other things, high oil prices have powerfully negative consequences for demand. Each of the last five global recessions has been preceded by a sharp spike in oil prices. Are we about to see the same thing happen again?

Everyone has been so focused on buttressing the banking system against further catastrophe that they seem to have forgotten about the continued power of oil to shock. Analysts have polarised into

two distinct camps: the alarmist and the broadly sanguine, with little room for argument in between.

Those of a sanguine disposition point to the fact that, although Libya is an important producer, it represents less than 2 per cent of global output. Even if all production were suddenly to cease, the Saudis and other producers should be able to fill the gap from their ample reserves of spare capacity.

This, of course, assumes that the Saudis do indeed possess such spare capacity (many believe they don't) and that it remains largely unaffected by the unrest. If Saudi falls, then the oil price will go through the roof, and probably stay there for a considerable length of time. That's the alarmist scenario, and it seems more likely by the day.

Since the oil price shocks of the 1970s, Western economies have very considerably reduced their energy intensity, the amount of energy they use for any given unit of economic output. This, in turn, has limited their vulnerability to oil price shocks.

One positive effect of high prices is that they encourage this process. After each recession, the gas guzzlers eventually return to American highways, but always in smaller numbers than before. Most nations are also taking steps to insulate themselves from these shocks by developing alternative sources of energy. If oil consumption per head in the US were to fall to European levels, it would reduce world demand by a quantity approximately equal to Saudi's entire output.

But these things take time. And while energy intensity is falling in the West, it's surging in the developing world. Technology transfer ought to mean that emerging markets such as China will reach peak energy intensity at a much earlier stage of their development than the industrial pioneers of the West did, but even so, the peak is still some decades off, and in the meantime demand will keep on growing.

Most models that predict the effect of rising oil prices on economic output have always struck me as fairly meaningless. To say that for every $10 the price increases, 0.5 per cent gets knocked off global GDP, doesn't tell you much, what matters is the speed with which prices rise and the time they stay high. The damage to confidence caused by a fast-rising oil price tends to have a much greater impact on demand, particularly in the US, where the price of petrol is a key determinant of overall spending.

After a very rapid increase, of the sort we've seen in the past year, there comes a point when consumers collectively decide to go on strike and stop spending. We are, I fear, perilously close to that tipping point. With advanced economies still struggling to emerge from the financial crisis, another oil price shock is just what we don?t need right. So now, everything depends on Saudi Arabia.

If it succumbs to the contagion, or fails to compensate for lost production in Libya by boosting its output, then we may have to wave the global recovery goodbye.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/8346498/If-the-Saudis-revolt-the-worlds-in-trouble.html#
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 08:16:16 PM by Christians4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: I hate the position I am in!.....Hate it...Hate It... Hate It!
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 08:29:16 PM »
Shame we didn't start building nuke energy plants about 10 years ago.