Author Topic: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?  (Read 5504 times)

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BT

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2011, 01:03:15 AM »
From google search

Tea Party's Planned Parenthood Attack Should Not Have Been a Surprise
Post by Sarah Posner

       In a Politico column, Ari Melber writes that people shouldn't be surprised by the GOP attack on Planned Parenthood and reproductive rights; after all, he notes, the Tea Party "is still a fundamentally conservative cohort that backs a conservative social agenda," despite its emphasis on fiscal issues.

Melber is right, but surprisingly, he cites only the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life's polling from February 2011 in support of his (correct) statement that Tea Partiers oppose abortion rights at higher rates than the GOP as a whole. What Melber neglects is important data that pre-dated the 2010 election and which gave not just clues, but enormous red flags that the Tea Party was motivated not just by an economic agenda, but a religious one as well.

Melber writes:

    Tea party adherents are actually more religion-driven and more anti-abortion than the party they are supposedly upending. Pundits keep asking whether the Republican establishment is using the tea party for the same old GOP issues. It's the other way around. These activists are just a more concentrated, more conservative version of the GOP. Of course, their big budget battle included a social agenda.

    That agenda was dormant during the 2010 election, so it was hard to see. The base was too busy kicking ass on health care and economics. Just as Coco Chanel famously told fashionistas, ?Always remove one accessory before leaving the house,? the tea party left one big issue at home before taking its campaign on the road.

The social agenda was not, however, hard to see. It was the way reporters covered the Tea Party that made the agenda hard to see. In covering Glenn Beck's inaugural 9/12 March in 2009, I found plenty of anti-abortion rhetoric, activists, and signage, expressed as opposition to "ObamaCare" and its supposed expansion of abortion. At the Values Voters Summit a week later, I met Tea Party activists who had received their political training with religious right groups, and in March 2010, reported on how a resurrected fallen mega-star of the religious right, Ralph Reed, was looking to transform the withering Christian Coalition infrastructure in the states into Tea Party/religious right powerhouses.

As I noted last June, reacting to a raft of media coverage that religious right political players were expressing concern that the Tea Party was insufficiently addressing its issues:

    A lot of the media pondering over whether the tea party can make common cause with the religious right has focused on the tea party's apparent lack of interest in taking on the abortion issue. But that overlooks anecdotal evidence that religious right activists like Ralph Reed, participants in the Values Voters Summit and in the Freedom Federation are looking to form coalitions with tea partiers, and, as Joanna Brooks has discussed here, the influence of Mormon belief on the rhetoric of Glenn Beck.

No doubt there are conflicts between some Tea Party leaders and religious right leaders over bringing religion and "social issues" to the fore. But without the long view of what the conservative movement is about, and how religion motivates it, reporters tended to take at face value complaints from religious right and anti-choice activists that the Tea Party was insufficiently emphasizing their issues. Those complaints are short-term, not long-term; in other words, the complainers are trying to drive media narratives for an election cycle and a Congressional session, and are jockeying for valuable press coverage of their activities.

A groundbreaking October 2010 study showed that the Tea Party had an "outsized" proportion of religious right activists as its base. The Public Religion Research Institute scooped Pew with this important study, which should have demonstrated that the Tea Party's interest in restricting abortion rights was not a mere accessory. In that October survey, PRRI found that Tea Partiers "are mostly social conservatives, not libertarians on social issues. Nearly two-thirds (63%) say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, and less than 1-in-5 (18%) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry." (emphasis in original) As I reported in October when PRRI released its study:

    According to the survey, nearly half of all respondents who considered themselves part of the tea party movement also considered themselves part of the religious right. "Among the more than 8-in-10 (81%) who identify as Christian within the Tea Party movement," the survey found, "57% also consider themselves part of the Christian conservative movement." One third of tea partiers are white evangelical Christians, [PRRI President Robert] Jones said the survey showed, compared to one in five voters in the general population. But one in three Republicans are white evangelical Christians, too, more proof that supporters of the tea party and the GOP -- despite the tea party claims to be an outside force -- share many of the same beliefs.

Election night 2010 might have been seen as a victory for the Tea Party. But it really was a victory for the religious right, and that shouldn't have been a surprise.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/sarahposner/4499/tea_party%27s_planned_parenthood_attack_should_not_have_been_a_surprise/

sirs

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2011, 01:06:42 AM »
I do enjoy the overlap
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2011, 01:10:37 AM »
Then Posners article is correct and that thetea party movement misrepresented itself during the 2010 cycle. Which probably won't help during the 2012 cycle, when all tea partiers are needed the most, with no wedges and divisions in their ranks.


And so it goes.


sirs

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2011, 01:20:46 AM »
So it doesn't, since 1 opinion does not a fact make

In order to validate yours or Posner's thesis, you need to demonstrate Tea Party rallies that demonstrate something OTHER than fiscal discipline, decreased regulations, limited government, and lower taxation, since you've already conceded that fiscal and social conservative platforms do not have to be mutually exclusive

You also need to demonstrate how Bachman's positions on fiscal restraint are inconsistent with that of the Tea Party, as well as pushing her social conservative views, when she was supposedly speaking for the Tea Party

Ball in your court
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2011, 01:36:06 AM »
Then Posners article is correct and that thetea party movement misrepresented itself during the 2010 cycle. Which probably won't help during the 2012 cycle, when all tea partiers are needed the most, with no wedges and divisions in their ranks.


And so it goes.

  What about the tea party is driveing off the pro- abortion fiscal conservatives?

   Where are the pro-abortion fiscal conservatives ,.... ? Perhaps there are not very many , but every single one of them is already a Tea partyer, no fact presented here so far would keep this from being the case.

  This whole article says nothing to me without haveing some measurement for the pro-abortion fiscal conservatives, or the slightest evidence that such persons are being rejected in some way by the tea party.

    Where should pro-abortion fiscal conservatives go and be more welcome ?

      Articles intended to expose (or produce!) splits in the tea party seem agenda driven to me.

     Where springs the dicotomy that makes it needfull to the tea party to reject all pro life members to preserve some sort of purity in whose eyes?

BT

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2011, 02:08:18 AM »
Actually i don't have to do anything.

All Obama has to do is find a wedge that will break the unity that was present in 2010 and he wins the presidency.

What you are saying is that abandoning a winning strategy, expanding that strategy to include social conservatism because that is ok with you which that could just as easily turn off tea party supporters as motivate them is perfectly fine  because the fiscal battle really isn't that important to the larger scheme of things, which is the imposition of a further nanny state, just regulating different things.

Pick your battles. Win the ones you can with what has proven successful or lose the whole enchilada because your overreached.

Look at the battleground.

these are serious times:

A sovereign debt crisis has political as well as economic dimensions. There is no way to predict precisely when it will occur, as I explained in this paper.

    If we have a crisis, it will occur suddenly as markets reach a tipping point, taking people by surprise.

I see the S.&P. news as a non-event. The nature of a debt crisis is that we will not find out about it from any rating agency. If we have a crisis, it will occur suddenly as markets reach a tipping point, taking people by surprise.

To me, the important thing to keep in mind is that some people's expectations for their future retirement will have to be disappointed. Government obligations, including worker pensions, Social Security, and Medicare, are underfunded. Government may renege on its promises. If instead it tries to keep its promises, it will probably have to confiscate the wealth of those who are trying to provide for their own retirement. One of those unpleasant scenarios, or a combination of the two, is fairly certain to occur.

The decisions over how to distribute the pain are likely to involve intense political conflict. The longer we avoid making the hard decisions, the worse the ultimate conflict is likely to be. If you think that the tough choices will only be made under crisis conditions, then you might actually root for a crisis to occur sooner rather than later.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/18/is-anyone-listening-to-the-standard-poors/a-debt-crisis-will-happen-unexpectedly

Are we honestly going to squander the chance to save this country because we can't stand the thought of some poof boy visiting his husband at the hospital or forcing some scared teenager to give birth to a child she doesn't want under penalty of law?

Guess so.




BT

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2011, 02:20:23 AM »
November 23, 2010
Social Issues On The Backburner For Congress
By Scott Conroy & Erin McPike

In another election year and under different economic circumstances, Republican Rep.-elect James Lankford of Oklahoma's 5th District might have arrived in Washington with a to-do list highlighting social issues at the very top.

Before launching his House campaign, Lankford was the director of the largest Christian youth camp in America, and his socially conservative positions helped attract the high-profile endorsements of former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee and former Oklahoma Rep. J.C. Watts.

Although he made his leadership of Falls Creek Baptist Conference Center a focal point of his campaign biography and did not shy away from talking about social issues when asked about them in an interview with RealClearPolitics, Lankford was clear that his priorities were elsewhere. His immediate focus, he said, was on tackling the national debt -- a task he framed in moral terms.

"I don't know of another generation of leaders that has said, ?Times are tough. I'm going to make it tougher on my kids to make it easier on me,'" said Lankford, a first-time elected officeholder who looks younger than his 42 years. "As weird as it sounds, I think people that I'm interacting with see debt as a moral issue, and they think if you will go aggressively after debt, that is the moral issue of our day."

Lankford is not the first politician to talk about reducing the debt as a moral cause. But it is perhaps indicative of the reach that the tea party movement's tenets had in this past election that an incoming congressman who spent the better part of his professional life working at a religious institution remained so focused on spending.

Though he called himself "tenaciously pro-life" and said that he did not believe Roe v. Wade to be settled law, Lankford indicated that he was unaccustomed to even talking about the abortion issue with a reporter.

"I wasn't asked often on the trail; I mean I just wasn't even asked," he said.

As he ate a hurried lunch between freshman orientation presentations, Lankford said that although he and other new Republican House members with backgrounds outside of politics had been seeking one another out, topics like abortion, gay marriage, and abstinence education had not been discussed.

"I'm not sure I've been in a conversation this week when those issues have even come up," Lankford said.

As the new Republican leadership prepares an agenda focused squarely on jobs, taxes and limiting the federal government's reach, social issues indeed seem poised to remain on the backburner in the next Congress.

Iowa Republican Rep. Steve King explained that in addition, legislation involving social issues might be futile in a Washington with a divided Congress and Democratic president.

"Whatever we might move will be faced with the opposition of the Senate and the president," he said.

King continued, "Here's what I think on the social issues side that has a reasonable chance of succeeding, and that is to shut off all funding to Planned Parenthood and similar organizations."

He added, "I think we have the votes to do that; I think we have a reasonable chance to get that done. That would be no funds going to any organization that provides abortion services or counseling."

Pressed on whether that would satisfy Republican voters who cast their ballots based on social issues, King, a staunch conservative himself, figured that it would. But he couched it as an economic issue.

"I think that we're going to start this Congress out, it will be about debt, deficit, jobs and the economy, but part of that is un-funding Planned Parenthood through the appropriations process," he said. "I think that would satisfy a lot of social conservatives. If we ended public funding for abortion in America, that would be a huge step in the right direction."

But socially conservative leaders outside of government are not buying the idea that their agendas have become mere afterthoughts in Washington. Gary Bauer, the president of American Values, wrote an op-ed in USA Today last week urging the new Congress to "restore America's sense of moral responsibility."

"If our politicians want to regain the trust of the American people, they will need to address not just matters of the pocketbook - but matters of the heart, too," Bauer wrote.

Bauer cited a poll conducted by his non-profit organization on Election Day, which showed that 58 percent of voters believed that the country was on the wrong track and that "at least part of it is due to the decline of moral and family values in society." But the poll did not seem to indicate any particular eagerness on the part of the American public for Congress to take up social issues while the economy remained such a pressing concern.

In the interview with RealClearPolitics, Lankford said that abortion, for instance, was simply not a topic that was often addressed at the federal level. Asked to name a policy idea that he was particularly enthusiastic about bringing to the table, the soon-to-be Oklahoma congressman, who has a Master's degree in divinity, gave an answer that sounded as though it had come straight from the tea party playbook.

"I would love for us to find ways to slow down the growth of our regulations," Lankford said. "And I do have a couple ideas buzzing around in my head of saying how do we wrap around all agencies in saying you can't continue to add things that no one's checked. It drives our business folks crazy."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/printpage/?url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/11/23/social_issues_remain_on_the_backburner_for_new_congress_108043.html

Plane

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2011, 02:27:32 AM »



          You have missed the poiont absolutely!


            There is no need at all for the Tea Party to REJECT what might amount to three quarters of its membership as you wouold have it, nor is there any need to REJECT the other quarter.

        If Rep Bachman is unacceptable because she is anti Abortion and that is devisive to the minority of Tea Party , then her alternative who is pro abortion must also be unacceptable!

         Now what do you have ? No acceptable spoksmen at all , for the sake of unity?

             Tolarance  and a priority on the achevable is all you need.

             I reject you intolerant attitude and hereby state that pro -murder anti -spending Democrats would be as welcome to speak as anyother Tea Partyer as far as I am concerned.

         You seem to be accepting the idea of disunity for the sake of unity! That article was not written from a Pro Tea party POV elese it might have noted that the pro and anti abortion factions of the Tea Party are NOT fighting!

            The only fact it states that I can accept is that the number of Anti- abortion Tea Partyers is greater than the Pro-Abortion set , if this is so I fail to see the harm.

           If this were reversed should I eschew them?

Plane

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2011, 02:29:33 AM »
Why do they have to be mutually exclusive??

Who says they do?

Let the religious right field their candidates,.......... let the tea party folks field theirs. let the primaries decide which way the country wants to go, but why the back door hijacking of a movement that has done more fiscally in two years than the social conservatives have done in 30?

  You are not saying that these are mutually exclusive?

I see you accepting a dicotomy that isn't really there.

sirs

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2011, 02:31:47 AM »
Actually i don't have to do anything.

Then yours and Posner's hypothesis are nothing more.  Neither Bachman, nor any social conservative I'm aware of, has hijacked the Tea Party, and the Tea Party remains precisely as it began, a large throng of the populace fed up with continued debt ridden government spending & taxation, with no apparent end in sight

And what I am saying is that the Tea Party movement does nothing to itself, as long as it remains focused on what brought it about.  Anyone that wishes to join the "party" needs to stipulate up front a priority of advocating fiscal restraint, limited government, & no more increased taxation.  Anything else one wants to bring along is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with the primary mission above

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2011, 02:42:57 AM »
[........  Anything else one wants to bring along is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with the primary mission above





   I wonder if an observation that the greater part of fiscal conservatives are also social conservatives is in itself deviseive?

     Or is this an example of wishfull thinking on the part of hostile outside observers?

      What indeed do the fiscal conservative but social liberal persons within the Tea Party want?Less spending on conservative programs?

sirs

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2011, 02:49:10 AM »
I'm afraid it may be more of the latter, Plane
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2011, 02:52:52 AM »
    To me, the important thing to keep in mind is that some people's expectations for their future retirement will have to be disappointed. Government obligations, including worker pensions, Social Security, and Medicare, are underfunded. Government may renege on its promises. If instead it tries to keep its promises, it will probably have to confiscate the wealth of those who are trying to provide for their own retirement. One of those unpleasant scenarios, or a combination of the two, is fairly certain to occur.




   Right this  is indeed so, .......why not let Michelle Bachman say this?
     If the Tea party must chase off the anti abortion people it will be splitting itself to no purpose.

   I just do not see how the tea party looses validity by being a wide tent and accepting people like Michelle Bachman!   

       Who is better? Who is there out there that has no opinion on Abortion?

BT

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2011, 02:55:10 AM »
Quote
Anything else one wants to bring along is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with the primary mission above

And who says sirs and I can't agree on anything. The Tea party is about fiscal conservatism, nothing more. and any other issue that muddies the water interferes with that primary mission. And please don tell me that alienating part of your base by introducing issues into the mix that aren't primarily about fiscal restraint such as the Planned Parenthood funding issue doesn't hurt your primary cause.


BT

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Re: Is the Tea Party classical liberalism?
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2011, 02:58:15 AM »
    To me, the important thing to keep in mind is that some people's expectations for their future retirement will have to be disappointed. Government obligations, including worker pensions, Social Security, and Medicare, are underfunded. Government may renege on its promises. If instead it tries to keep its promises, it will probably have to confiscate the wealth of those who are trying to provide for their own retirement. One of those unpleasant scenarios, or a combination of the two, is fairly certain to occur.




   Right this  is indeed so, .......why not let Michelle Bachman say this?
     If the Tea party must chase off the anti abortion people it will be splitting itself to no purpose.

   I just do not see how the tea party looses validity by being a wide tent and accepting people like Michelle Bachman!   

       Who is better? Who is there out there that has no opinion on Abortion?

Let's be  clear here. I never said run Michelle Bachmann off. What i don't want is her ambitions to muddy the brand of the tea party. I want the tea party to focus on the house and the senate and the state legislatures and take back this country long term.