I have 2 competing conspiracy theories

[BT]

Actually we were talking about the term flawless.  Not surprising in your defensive mode, to make this about something its not

Usually, this level of deflection is left to far grander issues, especially when the supposed response was "aimed at the group" and not me personally.  To spend this much time on trying to justify a point I never disagreed with, merely referencing the age old point of "it depends", when trying to claim an act was flawless or not, is quite illuminating

Actually we were talking about a flawless military operation.

Not a flawless tennis serve or pirouette.

Even absent the expense, i seriously doubt the planners intended to crash a high tech secret helicopter at the scene and leave advanced technology fragments available to the highest bidder. And if the crash was not planned, the operation was not flawless because all things did not go according to plan.

[sirs]

And in either case, budget is not a mandate to determing if the act was flawless or not

oy

[BT]

Budget certainly is a component of that kind of analysis.

[Plane]

  If you are planting vegitables it is wise to plant enough for yourself and for the rabbits.

  A military operation going off without a hitch is kinda unusual.

  Remember the hostage rescue attempt that failed during the Carter administration? Flaws that would not have failed the mission singly built up and built up untill there was not enough airlift left to have hope of success , the mission was called off and then in retreat another major acident occured .

    Successfull mission planning includes haveing backup plans and reserve capacity enough that flaws and mishaps can be overcome and the mission continued in spite of problems , resistance and mishaps.

     This time the execution of the plan was so well done that crashing one of the aircraft and finding a solid wall where a door was expected hardly slowed the accomplishment of main goals and  secondary goals . That no American casualtys were suffered is an extra measure of success that is high above reasonable expectation.

       Flawlessness is nice when it can be acheived , but it is unreasonable to expect it to happen frequently, and plans cannot be laid depending on haveing no problems , nor even less problems than usual.

       Good planning takes some waste and mishap and resistance into account , budgeting a reasonable amount in to overcome and overwhelm problems.

       It is better to have enough to stuff the rabbits than to depend on no rabits showing up.

[sirs]

Budget certainly is a component of that kind of analysis.

Sure, it CAN be, but not mandatory, when merely referencing if an act is flawless or not.  Even a Government act.  Even a Military act     

[BT]

the operation was not flawless even without the unanticipated cost overruns.

[sirs]

Opinion duly noted based on the goals YOU have prescribed to the act. 

[BT]

Opinion duly noted based on the goals YOU have prescribed to the act.

are you claiming now that they planned to crash the helicopter?

[sirs]

If we want to include the goal of coming back with 2 functional helicopters, then it was not accomplished.  If the goal was to capture/kill bin Laden and not lose any American soldiers in the process of the action, then the act was flawless

And we have come full circle

[BT]

If we want to include the goal of coming back with 2 functional helicopters, then it was not accomplished.  If the goal was to capture/kill bin Laden and not lose any American soldiers in the process of the action, then the act was flawless

And we have come full circle

One would think that they would want to return with both helicopters, else why send two.

[sirs]

They had 2 in reserve, so it would seem that they had planned for the potential of neither helicopter returning

But as I've said, we've come full circle.  At this point your arguing with me just to argue, since I haven't yet disagreed with the issue of other components, such as budgets, going into analysis and planning

If the goal was to take out bin Laden, and not lose any American troops in the process, it was indeed a flawless mission

[Xavier_Onassis]

FLAWLESS means "without a flaw"

Losing a multimillion dollar helicopter is clearly a flaw.

The objective was accomplished admirably, but it was not flawless.

If your goal is to go to the supermarket and buy groceries, and you return with everything on the list, but rear end a squad car on the way home, you cannot claim that you have performed FLAWLESSLY.

[BT]

At this point your arguing with me just to argue, since I haven't yet disagreed with the issue of other components, such as budgets, going into analysis and planning

Are you claiming immunity to challenge?

[Kramer]

FLAWLESS means "without a flaw"

Losing a multimillion dollar helicopter is clearly a flaw.

The objective was accomplished admirably, but it was not flawless.

If your goal is to go to the supermarket and buy groceries, and you return with everything on the list, but rear end a squad car on the way home, you cannot claim that you have performed FLAWLESSLY.

I'll buy that. He needs to break down and admit you are correct. The question is, will he or not?

[Xavier_Onassis]

In sirs mind, sirs is being blessed with perfect reasoning skills. When logic is not on his side, he redefines words, phrases and entire sentences and calls any attempt to point this out as "deflection"

This time, he has chosen to redefine the word "flawless".