Author Topic: Debunking myths about Israel  (Read 22025 times)

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BT

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2011, 08:43:21 PM »


1) Bible

2) History

So you are saying that previous title to the land way back then entitles them to ownership now?

And that differs from the Palestinian Arabs claims how?



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2011, 09:29:38 PM »
The Palestinians who presently occupy Israel and the West Bank, and many of those in Gaza are the descendants of Philistines, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Hebrews of all 12 tribes as well as early Christians, and European Crusaders as well as Turks. They have lived there since forever, converting to whatever religion was in fashion.

There were only a few Jews left after the Romans defeated the Bar Kochkba rebellion in 135 CE. The Zionist movement did not start until 1897, and was slow in populating the area. Most settlement dates from the 1930's.

The point is that all these people are related, and none has a better claim that any other. The idea that God grants real estate is quaint and inaccurate, as one could just as easily say that the Hebrews/Judeans p!ssed off God and He sent the Romans to remove them. The Bible is filled with such divine condemnations.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2011, 02:36:50 AM »
1) Bible

2) History


So you are saying that previous title to the land way back then entitles them to ownership now?

No...I'm referencing that Israel existed LONG before the UN


And that differs from the Palestinian Arabs claims how?

In that I never made the claim of "ownership"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2011, 07:32:05 AM »
Then what is your claim?

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2011, 11:10:56 AM »
That Israel was created FAR before the UN was
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2011, 11:17:06 AM »
And then it was vanished, as were Uqbar, the Iroquois Confederacy, Parthia, Burgandy, the Cisalpine Republic and hundreds of other disappeared states. Israel as a modern nation dates no further back than 1947. The rest is folklore irrelevant to the present political situation. The Hebrews came into Canaan, and were expelled. The fact that a group claiming to be the same people, who were not quite and not even mostly the same people returned starting in 1898 has no legal importance. They can sing songs about it as Texans sing about the Republic of Texas.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2011, 11:34:52 AM »
....and then they returned.  Yet none of your other "examples" did.  Nice try though.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2011, 12:59:14 PM »
There are no Texans? There are no Iroquois? There are no Burgundians, Parthians or Hittites?

I am pretty sure that a DNA test of people in the area would show that all these people still exist genetically. They simply do not exist as a political entity.

The Israel of 1947 is not the same country as the Israel of 2011, but there is a continuity.

There is only a very limited or no continuity of the Israel that last existed when the Babylonians conquered them and that name was last used as the name of a country and the Israel of 2011.

There is undoubtedly rather a lot of Hebrew DNA in today's Iranians, perhaps more than one would find in the people of Tel Aviv.

I do not buy this Biblical crap. Fail.
There were over a thousand years in which Hebrew was used only as a liturgical language in synagogues. The resurrection of the language is, of course a cultural phenomenon, not a territorial one. 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2011, 01:11:59 PM »
There is an ISRAEL, and they are not going anywhere, end of story.  One would have thought the Holocaust would have educated some of our older posters here.  Apparently, not
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2011, 01:32:37 PM »
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity. No country is, though some (Iceland, Tonga, Switzerland) are geographically more likely to have one nation rule than others.

I do not dispute Israel's right to exist. But I do not deny Palestine the same right to exist, either. Neither is more important than the other in my book. And anyone that understand history and geography must admit that Israel and Palestine are not ideally placed for eternal rule by a single ethnicity. Certainly not like Iceland or Tonga.

What the Holocaust has to do with this I do not know. Hitler proved that even with a well organized killing industry, extermination of as many Jews as exist is impossible, at least while fighting a war on three fronts.

If Israel were defeated militarily, we know that millions of Jews would not drown. At worst, they would be in the US, the UK, Canada, Australia and other places. Jews have money. Jews can and would travel. Hitler was a far more effective enemy than the rather puny Arab states could ever be. And note that Hitler failed.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 01:42:59 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2011, 01:42:55 PM »
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way


I do not dispute Israel's right to exist. But I do not deny Palestine the same right to exist, either.

And neither is Israel.  YOUR problem is that the Palestinians themselves, the ones the Israelis are expected to "negotiate with", expected to give up significant defensive positions that would bring the Palestinians within a rock's throw of Israel's version of DC, are the ones who dispute the right of Israel to exist.  Its even in their governing charter

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2011, 01:58:34 PM »
How is this MY problem? It is a world problem.

There are no truly secure borders possible in Palisrael where Palestinians and Israelis do not live in close proximity to one another. Look at any map. The only truly open spaces in the area are in the Negev Desert.

Of course, Israel would be much more secure with the capital in Tel Aviv. Look at any map.
The same is true of Palestine. Ramala would be a better capital than Jerusalem for them as well.

But deciding this is up to them. If someone chooses to give the kid arsenic playthings, they will need to keep them out of his mouth.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2011, 02:23:52 PM »
How is this MY problem?

Because you think this is all on Israeli's feet, they THEY're the ones that have to do something to bring about peace.  They could completely lay down their arms.....that wouldn't bring peace, it'd bring the destruction of Israel

You keep referencing how Israel & Palestinians both have a right to exist.  Israel agrees.  Palestinians apparently do not, manifested by their election of Hamas as a governing body.  And they're enabled and embolden to continue to think that way, so long as Israel is the supposed boogeyman

That's why its your problem....FACTS don't fit your anti-Israeli rhetoric.  All it'll bring is more war and more death.  And it'll be at your 11:1 ratio
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2011, 02:39:52 PM »
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way


According to this, Hitler was in favor of a jewish homeland in Palestine.

Quote
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained ?we must, above all, make it an international political issue.?[1]Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome ?final solution of the Jewish question.?[2]In his ?Diaries?, page 19, Herzl stated ?Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.?


    51 Documents:

    Zionist Collaboration
    with the Nazis

Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6] Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930?s, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized ?Kibbutz? training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of ?Israel?.[10]

The Transfer Agreement (which promoted the emigration of German Jews to Palestine) implemented in 1933 and abandoned at the beginning of WWII is an important example of the cooperation between Hitler?s Germany and international Zionism. [11] Through this agreement, Hitler?s Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930?s to support Jewish development in Palestine and further the Zionist goals.

Hitler and the Zionists had a common goal:  to create a world Jewish Ghetto as a solution to the Jewish Question.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm

sirs

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Re: Debunking myths about Israel
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2011, 03:09:57 PM »
It is not the end of the story. The state of Israel is not an eternal entity.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way

According to this, Hitler was in favor of a jewish homeland in Palestine.

Hmmm, makes him quote the hypocrite then with his Jewish Extermination Camps, now don't it

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle