Clear as Mud

[Michael Tee]

<<He also said that it would be valid today.>>

What's the BFD?  My comments were directed at the South of the 1960s.  I didn't deal with today's South at all.  The general run of commentary here seems to be that I don't know jack-shit about the New South and I can't really dispute that.  They've either stopped the random murder of blacks or figured out a way to keep it off the front pages, and apart from the odd trip to Florida, the place is just off my radar screen.

[Amianthus]

apart from the odd trip to Florida, the place is just off my radar screen.

Well, for something that's off your radar screen, you sure seem to go to a lot of trouble to claim that southerners are racist.

[Michael Tee]

<<Well, for something that's off your radar screen, you sure seem to go to a lot of trouble to claim that southerners are racist.>>

The topic that caught my eye was the South in the Sixties, as I said.  That's still very much ON my radar screen.  Fascinating time in history.  What I said was off my radar screen was the South of today.

[Amianthus]

What I said was off my radar screen was the South of today.

In the past you've made numerous claims that the south continues to be racist to this day.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Parts of the South ARE racist to this day.

Well, not so much parts of the South, as individuals residing in the South: a greater percentage are racists in the South than in other parts of the US, though certainly the most violent racists are either deceased or too feeble to get violent.

Some parts have more racists than others, of course. But is is individuals that have racist attitudes, not parts of real estate.

[sirs]

Parts of the South ARE racist to this day.

So are parts of the Northeast, the Midwest, the Pacific Northwest, and so on

[Amianthus]

a greater percentage are racists in the South than in other parts of the US,

I dispute this; I've lived throughout the US, and I found more racists in the northeast and upper midwest than anywhere else.

[Plane]

That was a good point about the KKK, but it ignores good and evil.  My point was that collaborators and traitors will be executed, but I mis-stated it as "should" be executed because I wasn't thinking of other situations besides Iraq.

If the local population is basically evil, as in the U.S. South,.....

Oh, thank you all to pieces.

The South was invaded and repressed and fought back against what they saw as evil . The North exploited the South economically during the same period.

But was the subjectivity of evil and good diffrent in that time than this?

I believe differently than some of my ancestors , I believe that I can live in peace among people of diffrent races who can treat me with respect  in reciprocity.

But by your formulation of invaders always failing , could there have been hope for such a thing?

Thomas Jefferson, as a Southerner, struggled with the inequity of treating  Indians as disposable and Negroes as farm animals , his intelect was great enough to overcome his upbringing and recognize the injustice and institutional crime these polices actually were , he commented on them in these terms , but he could not find a way out of the trap that the previous generations had dug. He considered the crime so unforgivable that repression of the wronged was essential to  survival .

The generations that followed Jefferson mostly dug this debt deeper  , without the influence of outsiders , this situation might have lasted a lot longer , or gotten worse , or worst of all lasted without mitigation until the present day.

So don't tell my buddies at the Sons Of The Confederacy (all great guys) but I am glad my side lost.

[Lanya]

Plane,
I think I have relatives who belong to that (or could).   
The ones who moved West wanted to forget that time as much as they could, I think.   

[Michael Tee]

<<In the past you've made numerous claims that the south continues to be racist to this day.>>

Claims?  What kind of claims?  It still IS racist today, just not as much as before.  Where do you think Trent Lott and George Allen and their ilk draw their support from?

[Michael Tee]

<<The South was invaded and repressed and fought back against what they saw as evil . The North exploited the South economically during the same period.>>

Are you totally CRAZY???  They could have avoided the whole thing by giving up SLAVERY.  They should thank their lucky stars they weren't totally exterminated for the evil slaving bastards they were.
------------------------------------------------
Sorry, plane, I was so infuriated by the opening of your post that I didn't even bother to read through to the end.  Glad you aren't unconditionally supporting those bastards.  Next time, I gotta remember to read the whole post before blowing my stack.

[Amianthus]

Claims?  What kind of claims?  It still IS racist today, just not as much as before.  Where do you think Trent Lott and George Allen and their ilk draw their support from?

Well, by that logic, every part of the world is racist.

[_JS]

Well, not so much parts of the South, as individuals residing in the South: a greater percentage are racists in the South than in other parts of the US, though certainly the most violent racists are either deceased or too feeble to get violent.

In many ways it was never the violent racists who were accepted in mainstream southern society by the 1960's. Maybe in backwater towns like Philadelphia, Mississippi there was some acceptance of the Klan, but in general by the mid 60's the Klan contained your rough & tumble outcasts. Your preachers, businessmen, and women of social standing would belong to the White Citizens Councils (later turned into Trent Lott's and Haley Barbour's pals at the CCC). They were far smarter and much more subtle about their racism than the Klan.

Everytime the Klan was caught murdering a white northerner or a southern "sympathizer" they only brought more national attention to the cause of civil rights (and generally helped someone like President Johnson pass landmark legislation). When the police in Alabama turned waterhoses and truncheons on peaceful marchers, that led to national sympathy for Civil Rights.

But yes, racism in the South and the rest of the country continued and still continues. When Goldwater said that the Civil Rights Act had a good intent but was unconstitutional the Southerners in the deep South states got the hint. Ronnie Reagan used the same argument. Jesse Helms used to go to Western Carolina (some of the poorest counties in North Carolina at one time) and talk about the blacks and Mexicans stealing all of their jobs, the people there got the hint. If you go to the CCC website you'll see a lot of their ire is directed at immigration issues and Hispanics today.

So yeah, racism sure as hell still exists and will always be a good issue to drag up when politicians (from any side) want some populist appeal to the lowest, basest of human concerns. Though Doctor King had a dream, and one I earnestly believe in, I think that element will always exist.

[Plane]

<<The South was invaded and repressed and fought back against what they saw as evil . The North exploited the South economically during the same period.>>

Are you totally CRAZY???  They could have avoided the whole thing by giving up SLAVERY.  They should thank their lucky stars they weren't totally exterminated for the evil slaving bastards they were.
------------------------------------------------
Sorry, plane, I was so infuriated by the opening of your post that I didn't even bother to read through to the end.  Glad you aren't unconditionally supporting those bastards.  Next time, I gotta remember to read the whole post before blowing my stack.

That is anoter good reason for me to stay breif, isn't it?

The South was doing a wrong thing and was trapped in it , I do not know if there was a means out other than the interference of outsiders by outright invasion.

[Michael Tee]

<<Well, by that logic, every part of the world is racist.>>

What, Trent Lott and George Allen would do as well anywhere else in the world?  Hope not!