Author Topic: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke  (Read 2305 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 11:37:23 PM »
Capitalism failed to provide the jobs and prosperity that would get these kids off food stamps and democracy died when it was hijacked by special interests who are more concerned with aid to Israel and spending trillions in foreign oil wars, but can't be bothered to look after the American people.

Kramer

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 11:47:37 PM »
Capitalism failed to provide the jobs and prosperity that would get these kids off food stamps and democracy died when it was hijacked by special interests who are more concerned with aid to Israel and spending trillions in foreign oil wars, but can't be bothered to look after the American people.

You have mistaken our recent turn towards Socialism as Capitalism. Capitalism creates jobs. The people protesting have two things in common: 1. they are Socialist, Marxist or Communists 2. None of them has ever created a job.

Obama is a Marxist and his plan the last 3 years is an utter failure. Compare Obama's Socialism Plan to Ronald Reagan's Capitalism Plan and you will see a clear winner.

Michael Tee

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2011, 01:14:11 AM »
<<You have mistaken our recent turn towards Socialism as Capitalism.>>

When did you take your "recent turn towards Socialism" and how far did you turn?

<<Capitalism creates jobs. >>

Yeah, that's for sure.  The problem is they created them in the Third World and closed them down here at home.  Which is why your current REAL jobless rate is now around 16%.

<<The people protesting have two things in common: 1. they are Socialist, Marxist or Communists 2. None of them has ever created a job. >>

I'm not sure if they all ARE "Socialist, Marxist or Communists," but I sure as bitchin' hell HOPE they are, because anyone who isn't is part of the problem and not part of the solution; and who gives a shit if they ever created a job or not, does the fact that they never created a job give the capitalist fucks who run your government now the right to rob them and cheat them?  THEY EXPECT BETTER.  And if the system doesn't give them better, they'll make a new system that will.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 01:46:45 AM by Michael Tee »

sirs

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2011, 01:35:03 AM »
Obama is a Marxist and his plan the last 3 years is an utter failure. Compare Obama's Socialism Plan to Ronald Reagan's Capitalism Plan and you will see a clear winner.

*golf clap*  Well said, Tee.  Couldn't agree with you more    8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2011, 01:48:58 AM »
<<Obama is a Marxist and his plan the last 3 years is an utter failure. Compare Obama's Socialism Plan to Ronald Reagan's Capitalism Plan and you will see a clear winner.>>

Ooooops, my bad!  Those were Kramer's words, left in my post inadvertently after a cut and paste from Kramer's original post.  Sorry, Kramer!  No plagiarism intended.

Kramer

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2011, 11:23:17 AM »
<<Obama is a Marxist and his plan the last 3 years is an utter failure. Compare Obama's Socialism Plan to Ronald Reagan's Capitalism Plan and you will see a clear winner.>>

Ooooops, my bad!  Those were Kramer's words, left in my post inadvertently after a cut and paste from Kramer's original post.  Sorry, Kramer!  No plagiarism intended.

Yeah but how can you dispute them words whether you said them or I said them.

sirs

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 11:48:29 AM »
Reaganomics Vs. Obamanomics: Facts And Figures

In February 2009 I wrote an article for The Wall Street Journal entitled “Reaganomics v Obamanomics,” which argued that the emerging outlines of President Obama’s economic policies were following in close detail exactly the opposite of President Reagan’s economic policies.  As a result, I predicted that Obamanomics would have the opposite results of Reaganomics.  That prediction seems to be on track.

When President Reagan entered office in 1981, he faced actually much worse economic problems than President Obama faced in 2009.  Three worsening recessions starting in 1969 were about to culminate in the worst of all in 1981-1982, with unemployment soaring into double digits at a peak of 10.8%.  At the same time America suffered roaring double-digit inflation, with the CPI registering at 11.3% in 1979 and 13.5% in 1980 (25% in two years).  The Washington establishment at the time argued that this inflation was now endemic to the American economy, and could not be stopped, at least not without a calamitous economic collapse.

All of the above was accompanied by double -igit interest rates, with the prime rate peaking at 21.5% in 1980.  The poverty rate started increasing in 1978, eventually climbing by an astounding 33%, from 11.4% to 15.2%.  A fall in real median family income that began in 1978 snowballed to a decline of almost 10% by 1982.  In addition, from 1968 to 1982, the Dow Jones industrial average lost 70% of its real value, reflecting an overall collapse of stocks.

President Reagan campaigned on an explicitly articulated, four-point economic program to reverse this slow motion collapse of the American economy:

1.  Cut tax rates to restore incentives for economic growth, which was implemented first with a reduction in the top income tax rate of 70% down to 50%, and then a 25% across-the-board reduction in income tax rates for everyone.  The 1986 tax reform then reduced tax rates further, leaving just two rates, 28% and 15%.

2.  Spending reductions, including a $31 billion cut in spending in 1981, close to 5% of the federal budget then, or the equivalent of about $175 billion in spending cuts for the year today.  In constant dollars, nondefense discretionary spending declined by 14.4% from 1981 to 1982, and by 16.8% from 1981 to 1983.  Moreover, in constant dollars, this nondefense discretionary spending never returned to its 1981 level for the rest of Reagan’s two terms!  Even with the Reagan defense buildup, which won the Cold War without firing a shot, total federal spending declined from a high of 23.5% of GDP in 1983 to 21.3% in 1988 and 21.2% in 1989.  That’s a real reduction in the size of government relative to the economy of 10%

3.  Anti-inflation monetary policy restraining money supply growth compared to demand, to maintain a stronger, more stable dollar value.

4.  Deregulation, which saved consumers an estimated $100 billion per year in lower prices.  Reagan’s first executive order, in fact, eliminated price controls on oil and natural gas.  Production soared, and aided by a strong dollar the price of oil declined by more than 50%.

These economic policies amounted to the most successful economic experiment in world history.  The Reagan recovery started in official records in November 1982, and lasted 92 months without a recession until July 1990, when the tax increases of the 1990 budget deal killed it.  This set a new record for the longest peacetime expansion ever, the previous high in peacetime being 58 months.

During this seven-year recovery, the economy grew by almost one-third, the equivalent of adding the entire economy of West Germany, the third-largest in the world at the time, to the U.S. economy.  In 1984 alone real economic growth boomed by 6.8%, the highest in 50 years.  Nearly 20 million new jobs were created during the recovery, increasing U.S. civilian employment by almost 20%.  Unemployment fell to 5.3% by 1989.

The shocking rise in inflation during the Nixon and Carter years was reversed.  Astoundingly, inflation from 1980 was reduced by more than half by 1982, to 6.2%.  It was cut in half again for 1983, to 3.2%, never to be heard from again until recently.  The contractionary, tight-money policies needed to kill this inflation inexorably created the steep recession of 1981 to 1982, which is why Reagan did not suffer politically catastrophic blame for that recession.

Real per-capita disposable income increased by 18% from 1982 to 1989, meaning the American standard of living increased by almost 20% in just seven years.  The poverty rate declined every year from 1984 to 1989, dropping by one-sixth from its peak.  The stock market more than tripled in value from 1980 to 1990, a larger increase than in any previous decade.

In The End of Prosperity, supply side guru Art Laffer and Wall Street Journal chief financial writer Steve Moore point out that this Reagan recovery grew into a 25-year boom, with just slight interruptions by shallow, short recessions in 1990 and 2001.  They wrote:

We call this period, 1982-2007, the twenty-five year boom–the greatest period of wealth creation in the history of the planet.  In 1980, the net worth–assets minus liabilities–of all U.S. households and business … was $25 trillion in today’s dollars.  By 2007, … net worth was just shy of $57 trillion.  Adjusting for inflation, more wealth was created in America in the twenty-five year boom than in the previous two hundred years.

What is so striking about Obamanomics is how it so doggedly pursues the opposite of every one of these planks of Reaganomics.  Instead of reducing tax rates, President Obama is committed to raising the top tax rates of virtually every major federal tax.  As already enacted into current law, in 2013 the top two income tax rates will rise by nearly 20%, counting as well Obama’s proposed deduction phase-outs.

The capital gains tax rate will soar by nearly 60%, counting the new Obamacare taxes going into effect that year.  The total tax rate on corporate dividends would increase by nearly three times.  The Medicare payroll tax would increase by 62% for the nation’s job creators and investors.  The death tax rate would go back up to 55%.  In his 2012 budget and his recent national budget speech, President Obama proposes still more tax increases

Instead of coming into office with spending cuts, President Obama’s first act was a nearly $1 trillion stimulus bill.  In his first two years in office he has already increased federal spending by 28%, and his 2012 budget proposes to increase federal spending by another 57% by 2021.

His monetary policy is just the opposite as well.  Instead of restraining the money supply to match money demand for a stable dollar, slaying an historic inflation, we have QE1 and QE2 and a steadily collapsing dollar, arguably creating a historic reflation.

And instead of deregulation we have across-the-board re-regulation, from health care to finance to energy, and elsewhere.  While Reagan used to say that his energy policy was to “unleash the private sector,” Obama’s energy policy can be described as precisely to leash the private sector in service to Obama’s central planning “green energy” dictates.

As a result, while the Reagan recovery averaged 7.1% economic growth over the first seven quarters, the Obama recovery has produced less than half that at 2.8%, with the last quarter at a dismal 1.8%.  After seven quarters of the Reagan recovery, unemployment had fallen 3.3 percentage points from its peak to 7.5%, with only 18% unemployed long-term for 27 weeks or more.  After seven quarters of the Obama recovery, unemployment has fallen only 1.3 percentage points from its peak, with a postwar record 45% long-term unemployed.

Previously the average recession since World War II lasted 10 months, with the longest at 16 months.  Yet today, 40 months after the last recession started, unemployment is still 8.8%, with America suffering the longest period of unemployment that high since the Great Depression.  Based on the historic precedents America should be enjoying the second year of a roaring economic recovery by now, especially since, historically, the worse the downturn, the stronger the recovery.  Yet while in the Reagan recovery the economy soared past the previous GDP peak after six months, in the Obama recovery that didn’t happen for three years.  Last year the Census Bureau reported that the total number of Americans in poverty was the highest in the 51 years that Census has been recording the data.

Moreover, the Reagan recovery was achieved while taming a historic inflation, for a period that continued for more than 25 years.  By contrast, the less-than-half-hearted Obama recovery seems to be recreating inflation, with the latest Producer Price Index data showing double-digit inflation again, and the latest CPI growing already half as much.

These are the reasons why economist John Lott has rightly said, “For the last couple of years, President Obama keeps claiming that the recession was the worst economy since the Great Depression.  But this is not correct.  This is the worst “recovery” since the Great Depression.”

However, the Reagan Recovery took off once the tax rate cuts were fully phased in.  Similarly, the full results of Obamanomics won’t be in until his historic, comprehensive tax rate increases of 2013 become effective.  While the Reagan Recovery kicked off a historic 25-year economic boom, will the opposite policies of Obamanomics, once fully phased in, kick off 25 years of economic stagnation, unless reversed?

Now we watch as Superman trips over all the scattered Kryptonite

In no particular order, but would include:
- the attempt at shooting the messenger
- the #'s can't be believed
- the personal "I lived tru those years.  I can tell me how terrible a time it was.  I was there, I saw how horrible things were for the poor, the minority, for anyone who wasn't a bazillionaire"
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 01:12:57 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 03:03:40 PM »
Geeze, I'd LOVE to shoot the messenger, but sirs carefully left out his name, so I can't.  Love to challenge the numbers too, but there aren't any sources for any of them, so I can't do that either.  I lived through those times alright, but about all I can remember from them is how Reagan smashed the Air Traffic Controllers' Union, paving the way for a long, ongoing assault on the labour union movement which continues to this day.  I don't see any real improvement in the lives of the working class resulting from the assault on labour unions, but I haven't really read any studies of it, so I can't say.

I will say that at the time of Reagan's presidency, the outsourcing of American workers' jobs either had not yet begun or was still in its infancy.  The Bush wars had not begun to vacuum money out of the Treasury to the present tune of $3 trillion and rising (including est. costs of future health care for wounded thugs and murderers) and America's financial scandals were still small-scale thievery (compare the S&L scandal of those days with the costs of the sub-prime mortgage loan crisis today.)

I know how tempting it is to look back on the golden days of Saint Ronny and compare them with the disaster of today, but personally, I bet the "golden days" weren't as golden as portrayed today and it's nuts to blame Obama for today's mess, because (a) its roots are bi-partisan and go back to before he took office and (b) he's just a tool of Wall Street anyway.

sirs

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Re: This nonsense is exactly why the USA is broke
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 03:26:45 PM »
And let's not dare address the polices put in place, by this president and the Democrat controlled congress the 1st 2years, that thru fire onto the burning economy, that Obama inherited.  Naaaa, need to focus on those scapegoats like Bush, as if ht were still president     :o
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle