Author Topic: Where Are We?  (Read 10875 times)

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BSB

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2011, 09:48:49 AM »
Wow man, righteous indignation.

Heavy.

You got any peanut bridle Mr. Crusader man?


BSB

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2011, 10:09:38 AM »
PRIORITIES MUST BE SET.  If salt and desalination plants weren't on the top of the priorities list, BFD - - presumably, for the central planners resonsible, other priorities than salt grabbed the limited resources available to the nation and were met instead.  This in no way indicates a failure of communism, but is a tribute to the abilities of the central planners to set their priorities
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Oh come on. Everyone knows people need salt. The technology to produce salt from seawater when there are thousands of idle hands is simply due to the fact that the government is incompetent. No sophisticated equipment is required. The same thing goes for growing rice and beans, instead of importing them from the US.

Cuba is very poorly run in many ways. Cubans are better off than Hondurans and Salvadoreans and maybe even some Puerto Ricans, but there is no excuse for Cuba not feeding itself. The embargo is a joke, and serves only to support a small number of people here in Miami that ship packages and provide phone service. It serves Raul and Co. as a pretext for their incompetence.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2011, 11:05:00 AM »
I am not a slave to strict conservativism,

Neither is the Republican party leadership.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2011, 11:50:31 AM »
<<Oh come on. Everyone knows people need salt.>>

In certain minimal qualities, probably yes.  I'm sure the Cuban diet provides all the salt they need, otherwise you'd see the results showing up as some form of clinical malnutrition.  As seasoning for food, that's another question.  Salt's basically bad for you and a major factor in coronary artery disease.  The government may well have decided that enough is enough.

<<The technology to produce salt from seawater when there are thousands of idle hands is simply due to the fact that the government is incompetent. No sophisticated equipment is required.>>

Incompetent or that they found better uses for the limited amount of construction materials they have than to waste them on salt evaporating ponds.  I'm sure that at some point the matter was given due consideration.  If the people really want their salt, nothing prevents them from forming collectives, asking the government for materials and designs for salt evaporation ponds and doing it themselves, but somewhere the state priorities for salt have been set.  Somehow it ranks somewhere below food, housing, education and health-care.  TS.

<< The same thing goes for growing rice and beans, instead of importing them from the US.>>

That's an even easier priorities calculation.  The planners figure out the volume of rice and beans needed, the cost of growing and distributing them internally and the cost of bringing them in from the outside and distributing them internally.  The costs would include "opportunity costs," i.e., what if instead of growing rice and beans we grew another crop for export on the same land we need for rice and beans?  Say a crop like sugar, which can be exported and in effect traded for petroleum?  All things considered, it might cost a lot more than you think to grow their own rice and beans.

<<Cuba is very poorly run in many ways. Cubans are better off than Hondurans and Salvadoreans and maybe even some Puerto Ricans, but there is no excuse for Cuba not feeding itself. >>

I'm sure there are inefficiencies there as everywhere.  Lots of room for improvement.  If the inefficiencies in the Cuban market were as great as the inefficiencies in the capital market in the USA, the whole fucking island would probably be under 300 feet of water by now.  Probably better not to even mention the inefficiencies in the US health-care delivery, educational and housing systems in that context.

<<The embargo is a joke, and serves only to support a small number of people here in Miami that ship packages and provide phone service.>>

It's no joke here.  There is only one major Canadian mining company that dares to do business in Cuba because of the Helms-Burton Act.  If it weren't for the Chinese, there'd be no exploitation of their offshore oil reserves; Canadian firms won't touch them, and the economies of doing it from closer to home are lost.  It always strikes me as hilarious when critics of the Cuban system claim that the embargo is totally ineffective, claim that they are against the embargo, and yet year after year, the US government maintains the embargo.  Oh, I forgot - - it's all for the benefit of a tiny group of gusanos in Florida, who have the means to direct US foreign policy.  They've got their own AIPAC.  Right.

<<It serves Raul and Co. as a pretext for their incompetence.>>

Well, whatever incompetence there is - - and I'm sure there has to be some, just like everywhere else - - you gotta admit, it's a great excuse.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2011, 01:22:32 PM »
That's an even easier priorities calculation.  The planners figure out the volume of rice and beans needed, the cost of growing and distributing them internally and the cost of bringing them in from the outside and distributing them internally.  The costs would include "opportunity costs," i.e., what if instead of growing rice and beans we grew another crop for export on the same land we need for rice and beans?  Say a crop like sugar, which can be exported and in effect traded for petroleum?  All things considered, it might cost a lot more than you think to grow their own rice and beans.

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That might make sense if Cuba had any appreciable agricultural exports. Cuba does not export any appreciable quantities of any agricultural products. A lot of good farmland is covered with weeds.

It is true that Cuban food has way too much salt in it, but people will still find a way to get salt, and it will deplete money for other things they buy. Cubans use way more sugar than could possibly be good for anyone, but in recent years they have imported sugar from Brazil.

The problem was that all the children are taught "Yo quiero ser como el Che", and they took it to heart. El Che never planted anything. The kids all want to move to the city and follow fashion trends. This means that they will not be in the country planting or harvesting  anything.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2011, 01:47:09 PM »
I'm sure the Cubans must export a lot of sugar and tobacco, at the very least.  "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm?" is a universal problem, can't be limited to Cuba.  Other countries have their own heroes, none of them so far as I know are farmers, so I wouldn't be so quick to blame El Che. 

I know Cuba exports nickel as well, only because one of our mid-size mining companies is down there mining the stuff.  We could probably have other Canadian miners there as well, but they're all scared of Helms-Burton.  Sheritt-Gordon Mines doesn't give a shit about Helms-Burton.

A friend of mine spent a year in Cuba and he's going back for another one.  There are lots of shortages there, electricity is in shot supply and stealing from the grid is common, but the people are healthy and happy and they are living a good life, which I guess is what it's all about.

Kramer

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2011, 01:57:09 PM »
Maybe it's time to face the fact that our government is too big to change, and needs to be replaced not by a smaller government.  But by smaller governments.


Sure give the states more rights and autonomy from the Feds but when one makes bad decisions don't expect the rest of the states to step in for a bale out like Greece.


California will surely become part of Mexico.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2011, 03:11:45 PM »
What el Che did in Cuba, he did well. In Africa and Bolivia, not so well.

But el Che is not responsible for campesinos wanting to come to the cities and towns, where there is good water, electricity, and schools and medical care. You are correct, that is universal in Latin America. In Paraguay, the huge dams at Iguazu and Ycyreta brought electricity to many farms, and there seem to be fewer people leaving.

In Mexico and Santo Domingo, people leave the farms because there are too many people for the land to support.In Cuba, the government does not spend enough to make farming desirable. The government pays little for produce and then sells it at a huge markup in dollar stores in the cities.

In Mexico overpopulation drives people off the land. In Cuba, there is plenty of land, but the system does not reward the farmer, and he leaves.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2011, 03:32:07 PM »
<<The government pays little for produce and then sells it at a huge markup in dollar stores in the cities.>>

So how much more can they pay before it becomes cheaper to import the food from the USA where economies of scale bring the unit cost down substantially?

Plane

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2011, 09:18:35 PM »
................................and a giant Fuck You to those crusaders for world domination whose names we all know.


Don't assume that the same names spring to my mind as yours.

Michael Tee

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2011, 12:27:41 AM »
<<Don't assume that the same names spring to my mind as yours.>>

Perish the thought!

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2011, 12:48:15 AM »
So how much more can they pay before it becomes cheaper to import the food from the USA where economies of scale bring the unit cost down substantially?

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Cuba has high unemployment and cannot grow enough food to feed its people. I am not an expert in how much it costs in rice and beans to grow them in Cuba, but it has to be cheaper than growing them in Arkansas and Louisiana. Cuba certainly is a huge market for rice and beans,and should be able to have an economy of scale. Thailand exports rice, Vietnam exports rice, even India exports some rice.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

R.R.

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2011, 04:06:39 AM »
Quote
Where Are We? - BSB

Did you forget today's dose?

Michael Tee

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2011, 04:26:35 AM »
<< I am not an expert in how much it costs in rice and beans to grow them in Cuba, but it has to be cheaper than growing them in Arkansas and Louisiana. >>

Of course, but you're only looking at half the equation.  How much sugar could they grow on the same land you want them to plant rice and beans on, what is THAT worth in oil-producing nations, i.e., what's it worth in terms of petroleum products that can be bought with the proceeds of sugar sales?

Also it's quite possible that any kind of agriculture in Cuba requires imported fertilizer.  I remember hitch-hiking with my wife in Cuba in 1986 in Granma (formerly Oriente) Province and our ride out of Media Luna was a truck bringing a load of urea from a Soviet freighter in Manzanillo harbour.  I assume that the urea was fertilizer, its likeliest use at the time.

Combine those deliberations with the reluctance of young rural people to farm, hardly a problem unique to Cuba and you may have a central planning decision of "Fuck it, ain't worth the hassle of forcing these young, spirited folk into a lifetime of drudgery down on the farm where they don't want to be for the minimal benefits of some rice and beans which we can buy with the foreign exchange we get from selling sugar."  I don't know because obviously I'm not privy to the deliberations of the economic planning committees of the Cuban Communist Party.  But that is one AWESOME Communist Party, IMHO.  I'm sure they know what they are doing.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Where Are We?
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2011, 12:51:41 PM »
But that is one AWESOME Communist Party, IMHO.  I'm sure they know what they are doing.

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Cuba is in pretty decrepit shape, from all I have seen. They may know what they are doing, but it does not seem to be working.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."