Author Topic: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea  (Read 6180 times)

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Kramer

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Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« on: October 25, 2011, 10:34:04 PM »
WASHINGTON (AP) — Army 1st Lt. Ashley White died on the front lines in southern Afghanistan last weekend, the first casualty in what the Army says is a new and vital wartime attempt to gain the trust of Afghan women.

White, like other female soldiers working with special operations teams, was brought in to do things that would be awkward or impossible for her male teammates. Frisking burqa-clad women, for example.

Her death, in a bomb explosion in the Taliban heartland of Kandahar, demonstrates the risks of placing women with elite U.S. special operations teams working in remote villages.

Military leaders and other female soldiers in the program say its rewards are great, even as it fuels debate over the roles of women in combat.

"We could do things that the males cannot do, and they are starting to realize that," says Sgt. Christine Baldwin, who like White was among the first groups of women deployed to Afghanistan this year as specially trained "cultural support" troops.

Male soldiers often cannot even speak to an Afghan woman because of the strict cultural norms that separate the sexes and the tradition of women remaining behind closed doors most of the time. Forcing the issue has yielded only resentment, military officials say, and has jeopardized the trust and cooperation of villagers. From the start of the war 10 years ago, Afghans have especially resented the practice of "night raids" in which male foreign soldiers enter and search homes, the traditional sanctum of women.

"We could search the female, find out the other half of the information," Baldwin said in an interview. "If you're missing half of the lay of the land, how effective are you in engaging the populace?"

That question was eight years in the making. It arose from the frustration of U.S. commanders who realized two years ago that as they tried to apply the principles of counterinsurgency — protect civilians and enlist them to reject insurgents and provide intelligence — they were not reaching the majority of the Afghan population.

Now, the first female soldiers are serving in commando units. They are trained to ferret out critical information not available to their male team members, to identify insurgents disguised as women and figure out when Afghan women are being used to hide weapons.

U.S. women have been on the front lines in Afghanistan since the war began, and over time they have been used to reach out to the Afghan population through health care initiatives and other programs. They have traveled with Army soldiers and Marines throughout the warfront, often to assist in development projects or as part of psychological operations, which now are called MISO, or military information support operations.

But as elite special operations teams fanned out across the country doing counterinsurgency "stability operations" in the small villages, they complained to their superiors that they were not reaching the women and children who comprise as much as 71 percent of the population.

"We waited too long to get to this," says Command Sgt. Maj. Ledford Stigall. "We had a lot of people focused on the kill and capture, and it really took someone to say, hey it's not about kill, capture, it's about developing a country that can take care of itself."

"Women have a voice," he said. "They can influence the men in their society."

In 2009, under pressure from Gen. Stanley McChrystal, then the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, and Gen. David Petraeus, then the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, the Army began to develop Cultural Support Teams.

Last November, the first group of women went through a grueling five-day assessment that tested their physical and military skills, their problem-solving and writing abilities and their psychological and mental fitness. Those that passed moved on to a six-week training program.

And in January, the first group of 28 women were deployed to Afghanistan with Army Rangers and Special Forces teams.

They went in two-woman teams as part of larger special operations units, usually numbering about a dozen. And they were designed to go out on patrols and into the villages with the special operators to help build relations with the communities by engaging with the Afghan women.

In the process, they also could glean valuable intelligence about the people in the region, information they might not be able to get from the men.

Capt. Adrienne Bryant was in the first group that deployed.

Down in Helmand Province with a team of Marine special operations forces, Bryant said, the initial response from the population was tepid.

On her first patrol, however, the team introduced her and her CST teammate to a village elder.

"He had been constantly abused by the Taliban, had been kidnapped and returned and he didn't want to work with coalition forces any more because of the fear the Taliban was going to retaliate," Bryant said in an interview.

Bryant and her teammate talked to him about what they could do for the women of his village, including the medical assistance and skills training, like sewing, they could bring. And he was interested.

"Helmand was a pretty conservative area, women aren't really seen out much, they don't shop. So we had to disguise our sewing program; we ran it in conjunction with our clinic," Bryant said. "In case the women were being scrutinized because they were coming to learn a skill from us, they had cover by coming on clinic days."

Baldwin was sent up north with an Army special operations team in Kunduz Province. The women they encountered were hesitant at first.

"We'd go out on patrol and be all kitted up and they were almost fearful, but once we took off that helmet, and put on the scarf, they would recognize that it was a female and the fear would be gone," she said.

Both Baldwin and Bryant said the Afghan women and children at their meetings grew from a few to dozens. Neither said they ever felt they were in immediate danger during their eight-month deployment, although they knew what was possible.

"Any day that they're walking into a village and engaging with the population they are at the same risk as those Special Forces, SEALs, or special operators they're detailed to. So I would say it is not for the weak-kneed," said Michael Lumpkin, principal deputy assistant defense secretary for special operations. "These women are on the front lines in very austere locations."

Ashley White, 24, was among the 34 CST members to go to Afghanistan in the second group, and she was assigned to a Ranger unit. The Ohio native and two Rangers were killed when their assault force triggered a roadside bomb. In a press release Monday, U.S. Army Special Operations Command said White "played a crucial role as a member of a special operations strike force. Her efforts highlight both the importance and necessity of women on the battlefield today."

Lumpkin said that so far commanders agree the program has been a success. The third group of women is about to begin training, and the tentative plan is to have 25 permanent Army CST teams by 2016.

"When 71 percent of the population are women and children, you have to have buy-in from a greater number of people in the villages to really connect with them, and to understand really what's going on. Because of that female-to-female connection, that can be achieved," Lumpkin said.

He added, "We're coming late to the table, but we've recognized the value (of the program), and I think this will transcend beyond Afghanistan. ... I don't see them going away any time soon."

Michael Tee

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 11:59:46 PM »
One failure after another, each one coming as The Next New Thing.  We're gonna win because of the surge.  We're gonna win because of our Special Ops who are culture sensitive.  We're gonna win because we have big drones.  We're gonna win because we have little bitty drones.  We're gonna win because we send in women to help terrorize and abuse the natives. 

You're gonna lose the fucking war just like you lost Iraq just like you lost Viet Nam.  Whenever needed, your dumb-ass military come up with some new bullshit on why, THIS TIME, it's really, really different and the dumb-ass American public buy it no matter how many Next New Things have already come and gone and been forgotten.

Most of all, you're gonna lose because you're broke and you can't afford to keep up even the pretence of fighting a war effectively and some bullshit excuse will have to be made up for the reality that your sorry asses are once more being hauled out of a fight that you couldn't win despite all your material advantages.

Kramer

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 12:06:33 AM »
One failure after another, each one coming as The Next New Thing.  We're gonna win because of the surge.  We're gonna win because of our Special Ops who are culture sensitive.  We're gonna win because we have big drones.  We're gonna win because we have little bitty drones.  We're gonna win because we send in women to help terrorize and abuse the natives. 

You're gonna lose the fucking war just like you lost Iraq just like you lost Viet Nam.  Whenever needed, your dumb-ass military come up with some new bullshit on why, THIS TIME, it's really, really different and the dumb-ass American public buy it no matter how many Next New Things have already come and gone and been forgotten.

Most of all, you're gonna lose because you're broke and you can't afford to keep up even the pretence of fighting a war effectively and some bullshit excuse will have to be made up for the reality that your sorry asses are once more being hauled out of a fight that you couldn't win despite all your material advantages.

If we would just go in and fight a war the way it should be fought they would be over rather quickly and at little cost of our lives and our money. But liberalism has caused us to fight sanitary wars which in turn cost more lives and more money. WWII was the last well fought war.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 12:29:03 AM »
So the Libyan War which had 0 casualties was longer than WWII?

There were no US casualties in the action against Serbia, either.

Republicans should not be allowed to start wars. Iraq and Afghanistan being two very good examples.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 12:36:36 AM »
<<If we would just go in and fight a war the way it should be fought they would be over rather quickly and at little cost of our lives and our money. But liberalism has caused us to fight sanitary wars which in turn cost more lives and more money. WWII was the last well fought war.>>

Your wars are "sanitary?"  Since when is torture of prisoners "sanitary?"  Since when is blowing up wedding parties "sanitary?"  Since when is the terrorization of civilians during masked night raids on their homes "sanitary?"  Since when are rape and murder of underage teenagers "sanitary?"

Shame how "liberalism" tied your hands.  What a load of fucking bullshit.  What tied your hands was the refusal to raise taxes to support the war.  That war required a minimum of half a million fully armed U.S. soldiers occupying every square foot of inhabited land for fifteen years at the minimum and taking charge of every school, madrassa, newspaper and TV station in the country.   Your "fiscal conservaties" would have had about eight heart attacks apiece if asked to pay for a reasonable war effort through taxes.  So your Presidents Bush and then Obama decided to fight the war on the cheap.  THAT'S why you've gotten nowhere in ten years.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 12:45:52 AM »
It is pretty clear that Afghanistan is unwinnable. Historically, Afghanistan has had perhaps 20 years total when the central government actually governed the entire country. That was before the Soviets took over.

It does make sense to use women soldiers, except in Afghanistan we should have declared victory and left long ago. Women are not going to win this war, it is simply unwinnable.

 The only workable solution would be to get Pakistan to move to another neighborhood. That is impossible or course.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Kramer

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 12:47:46 AM »
It is pretty clear that Afghanistan is unwinnable.

Looks like the guy (Obama) that your reputation is heavily invested in is a fool just like you.

BT

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 12:48:30 AM »
Why is it a dumb idea? If you have the proper tool use it.

Kramer

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2011, 12:51:30 AM »
Why is it a dumb idea? If you have the proper tool use it.

Model wars after WWII, if they had women in this role during WWII then I take it back, otherwise it's just more liberalism, which equals symbolism, which equals bad outcome.

BT

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 01:03:58 AM »
Are women soldiers in other countries armies ceremonial or do they take part in front line action. What about rebel armies in South America? Female fighters there?

Women have been in police forces for a while. How have they done facing armed resistance?


Kramer

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 01:17:01 AM »
Are women soldiers in other countries armies ceremonial or do they take part in front line action. What about rebel armies in South America? Female fighters there?

Women have been in police forces for a while. How have they done facing armed resistance?

What has always made America America is we are unlike all the rest and I don't want to become a 3rd world country. Excluding Israel because we know why women have been drafted into the military there.

BT

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 01:19:47 AM »
Have the women of Israel held their own during combat?

BSB

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2011, 01:38:47 AM »
Well we know how dumb the liberal pacifists Petraeus and McChrysta, who have have overseen between them probably more than 5,000 assassinations, are compared to the conservative lion WeWe, so lets remove all the women from Spec Ops and just nuke Pakistan, and fire bomb Afghanistan.

BSB

Kramer

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2011, 02:08:24 AM »
Have the women of Israel held their own during combat?

I think so but I prefer American women not be placed directly into front line war because I don't like to see women blown up, shot, captured, and tortured, and it's bad enough that it happens to our young boys. My opinion isn't based on whether or not they can do the job.

BT

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Re: Two words comes to mind - dumb idea
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 02:55:48 AM »
Your position is based on some sort of Chivalry.

You know i read somewhere where anti-mormonism as well as jim crow laws were based primarily on the chivalrous intent of southern men.

Not that your position and that tidbit are related. But your position remi9nded me of reading that.