Author Topic: Will Al Gore Melt?  (Read 3098 times)

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sirs

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Will Al Gore Melt?
« on: January 22, 2007, 12:55:07 AM »
If not, why did he chicken out on an interview?

BY FLEMMING ROSE AND BJORN LOMBORG
Sunday, January 21, 2007


Al Gore is traveling around the world telling us how we must fundamentally change our civilization due to the threat of global warming. Last week he was in Denmark to disseminate this message. But if we are to embark on the costliest political project ever, maybe we should make sure it rests on solid ground. It should be based on the best facts, not just the convenient ones. This was the background for the biggest Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, to set up an investigative interview with Mr. Gore. And for this, the paper thought it would be obvious to team up with Bjorn Lomborg, author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist," who has provided one of the clearest counterpoints to Mr. Gore's tune.

The interview had been scheduled for months. The day before the interview Mr. Gore's agent thought Gore-meets-Lomborg would be great. Yet an hour later, he came back to tell us that Bjorn Lomborg should be excluded from the interview because he's been very critical of Mr. Gore's message about global warming and has questioned Mr. Gore's evenhandedness. According to the agent, Mr. Gore only wanted to have questions about his book and documentary, and only asked by a reporter. These conditions were immediately accepted by Jyllands-Posten. Yet an hour later we received an email from the agent saying that the interview was now cancelled. What happened?

One can only speculate. But if we are to follow Mr. Gore's suggestions of radically changing our way of life, the costs are not trivial. If we slowly change our greenhouse gas emissions over the coming century, the U.N. actually estimates that we will live in a warmer but immensely richer world. However, the U.N. Climate Panel suggests that if we follow Al Gore's path down toward an environmentally obsessed society, it will have big consequences for the world, not least its poor. In the year 2100, Mr. Gore will have left the average person 30% poorer, and thus less able to handle many of the problems we will face, climate change or no climate change.

Clearly we need to ask hard questions. Is Mr. Gore's world a worthwhile sacrifice? But it seems that critical questions are out of the question. It would have been great to ask him why he only talks about a sea-level rise of 20 feet. In his movie he shows scary sequences of 20-feet flooding Florida, San Francisco, New York, Holland, Calcutta, Beijing and Shanghai. But were realistic levels not dramatic enough? The U.N. climate panel expects only a foot of sea-level rise over this century. Moreover, sea levels actually climbed that much over the past 150 years. Does Mr. Gore find it balanced to exaggerate the best scientific knowledge available by a factor of 20?

Mr. Gore says that global warming will increase malaria and highlights Nairobi as his key case. According to him, Nairobi was founded right where it was too cold for malaria to occur. However, with global warming advancing, he tells us that malaria is now appearing in the city. Yet this is quite contrary to the World Health Organization's finding. Today Nairobi is considered free of malaria, but in the 1920s and '30s, when temperatures were lower than today, malaria epidemics occurred regularly. Mr. Gore's is a convenient story, but isn't it against the facts?

He considers Antarctica the canary in the mine, but again doesn't tell the full story. He presents pictures from the 2% of Antarctica that is dramatically warming and ignores the 98% that has largely cooled over the past 35 years. The U.N. panel estimates that Antarctica will actually increase its snow mass this century. Similarly, Mr. Gore points to shrinking sea ice in the Northern Hemisphere, but don't mention that sea ice in the Southern Hemisphere is increasing. Shouldn't we hear those facts? Mr. Gore talks about how the higher temperatures of global warming kill people. He specifically mentions how the European heat wave of 2003 killed 35,000. But he entirely leaves out how global warming also means less cold and saves lives. Moreover, the avoided cold deaths far outweigh the number of heat deaths. For the U.K. it is estimated that 2,000 more will die from global warming. But at the same time 20,000 fewer will die of cold. Why does Mr. Gore tell only one side of the story?

Al Gore is on a mission. If he has his way, we could end up choosing a future, based on dubious claims, that could cost us, according to a U.N. estimate, $553 trillion over this century. Getting answers to hard questions is not an unreasonable expectation before we take his project seriously. It is crucial that we make the right decisions posed by the challenge of global warming. These are best achieved through open debate, and we invite him to take the time to answer our questions: We are ready to interview you any time, Mr. Gore--and anywhere.


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"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 07:45:10 AM »
Global warming?

No problem. XO assures us we can just convert the excess heat into electricity.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2007, 01:14:48 PM »
Hmm, a politician versus a scientist.  On an issue of environmental science.  Yeah, that sounds like a fair debate.  Sorta like a politician versus a professonial boxer.  In a boxing ring.  That's fair too, or so sirs would think.  May the better man win.

This guy, Bjorn Lomborg, sure has balls taking on Al Gore.  Pity he didn't feel feisty enough to take on a fellow scientist for the Jyllands-Posten and their "investigative reporter."  "Circus promoter" would be a better title, but hey, what do I really care if I don't read their rag anyway?

Fortunately, Al Gore seems to be smart enough to avoid sticking his head in a bear trap.  Will he melt?  Based on this little non-story, I DON'T THINK SO.

sirs

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2007, 01:46:35 PM »
Hmm, a politician versus a scientist.  On an issue of environmental science.  Yeah, that sounds like a fair debate.  Sorta like a politician versus a professonial boxer.  In a boxing ring.  That's fair too, or so sirs would think.

Naaa, more like what Lanya thinks, applying the "Fairness Doctrine".  Or so we're left to assume since she not so surprisning ran as fast as she could when Ami & Prince began to inquire just how far she & like minds wish to apply "fair"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2007, 01:54:31 PM »
Hmm, a politician versus a scientist.  On an issue of environmental science.  Yeah, that sounds like a fair debate.  Sorta like a politician versus a professorial boxer.  In a boxing ring.  That's fair too, or so sirs would think.  May the better man win.

This guy, Bjorn Lomborg, sure has balls taking on Al Gore.  Pity he didn't feel feisty enough to take on a fellow scientist for the Jyllands-Posten and their "investigative reporter."  "Circus promoter" would be a better title, but hey, what do I really care if I don't read their rag anyway?

Fortunately, Al Gore seems to be smart enough to avoid sticking his head in a bear trap.  Will he melt?  Based on this little non-story, I DON'T THINK SO.


  This has been argued between scientists before , even in the pages of Scientific American Magazine . Generally more credence is given to the warmer arguments but the agreement is not unanimous.

  If Gore can't hold a dialog with a real scientist , ten he shouldn't be applying a veneer of science to his opinions  , Gore should attend this debate , even if he has to bring a scientist along as an adviser. The ideal debate would include a scientist and a politician from both camps because the problems and potential solutions are both scientific and political and should not be addressed by a politician or a scientist alone.

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Cute to bring up the fairness doctrine , can I get equal time as an inland landowner ? To me a nearer beach might enhance my life , and the value of my property.

sirs

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2007, 01:58:46 PM »
This guy, Bjorn Lomborg, sure has balls taking on Al Gore.  Pity he didn't feel feisty enough to take on a fellow scientist for the Jyllands-Posten and their "investigative reporter."  "Circus promoter" would be a better title, but hey, what do I really care if I don't read their rag anyway?  Fortunately, Al Gore seems to be smart enough to avoid sticking his head in a bear trap.  Will he melt?  Based on this little non-story, I DON'T THINK SO.

  This has been argued between scientists before , even in the pages of Scientific American Magazine . Generally more credence is given to the warmer arguments but the agreement is not unanimous.

  If Gore can't hold a dialog with a real scientist , ten he shouldn't be applying a veneer of science to his opinions  , Gore should attend this debate , even if he has to bring a scientist along as an adviser. The ideal debate would include a scientist and a politician from both camps because the problems and potential solutions are both scientific and political and should not be addressed by a politician or a scientist alone.


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Cute to bring up the fairness doctrine , can I get equal time as an inland landowner ? To me a nearer beach might enhance my life , and the value of my property.

Absolutely.  It's only "fair", right Lanya? 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2007, 02:11:18 PM »
Climate scientists feeling the heat
As public debate deals in absolutes, some experts fear predictions 'have created a monster'


By ERIC BERGER
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle [/size]
 
Scientists (sirs notes the effort to imply some sort of unanimous reference by stating "scientists" vs "some scientists" or even "many scientists") long have issued the warnings: The modern world's appetite for cars, air conditioning and cheap, fossil-fuel energy spews billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, unnaturally warming the world.

Yet, it took the dramatic images of a hurricane overtaking New Orleans and searing heat last summer to finally trigger widespread public concern on the issue of global warming.

Climate scientists (again note the effort at implying some form of unanimity) might be expected to bask in the spotlight after their decades of toil. The general public now cares about greenhouse gases, and with a new Democratic-led Congress, federal action on climate change may be at hand.

Problem is, global warming may not have caused Hurricane Katrina, and last summer's heat waves were equaled and, in many cases, surpassed by heat in the 1930s.

In their efforts to capture the public's attention, then, have climate scientists oversold global warming? It's probably (probably?) not a majority view, but a few climate scientists are beginning to question whether some dire predictions push the science too far.

"Some of us are wondering if we have created a monster," says Kevin Vranes, a climate scientist at the University of Colorado.

Vranes, who is not considered a global warming skeptic by his peers, came to this conclusion after attending an American Geophysical Union meeting last month. Vranes says he detected "tension" among scientists, notably because projections of the future climate carry uncertainties — a point that hasn't been fully communicated to the public(Wow, what a surpise.......not)

The science of climate change often is expressed publicly in unambiguous terms.

For example, last summer, Ralph Cicerone, president of the National Academy of Sciences, told the U.S. House Committee on Energy and Commerce: "I think we understand the mechanisms of CO2 and climate better than we do of what causes lung cancer. ... In fact, it is fair to say that global warming may be the most carefully and fully studied scientific topic in human history."

Vranes says, "When I hear things like that, I go crazy."

Nearly all climate scientists believe the Earth is warming and that human activity, by increasing the level of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, has contributed significantly to the warming. (well at least now he's not hiding his implication now)

But within the broad consensus are myriad questions about the details.
How much of the recent warming has been caused by humans?
Is the upswing in Atlantic hurricane activity due to global warming or natural variability?
Are Antarctica's ice sheets at risk for melting in the near future?

To the public and policymakers, these details matter. It's one thing to worry about summer temperatures becoming a few degrees warmer.

It's quite another if ice melting from Greenland and Antarctica raises the sea level by 3 feet in the next century, enough to cover much of Galveston Island at high tide.

Models aren't infallible
Scientists (again note the implication of some unanimity among "scientists") have substantial evidence to support the view that humans are warming the planet — as carbon dioxide levels rise, glaciers melt and global temperatures rise. Yet, for predicting the future climate, scientists must rely upon sophisticated — but not perfect — computer models.

"The public generally underappreciates that climate models are not meant for reducing our uncertainty about future climate, which they really cannot, but rather they are for increasing our confidence that we understand the climate system in general," says Michael Bauer, a climate modeler at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, in New York.

Gerald North, professor of atmospheric sciences at Texas A&M University, dismisses the notion of widespread tension among climate scientists on the course of the public debate. But he acknowledges that considerable uncertainty exists with key events such as the melting of Antarctica, which contains enough ice to raise sea levels by 200 feet.

"We honestly don't know that much about the big ice sheets," North says. "We don't have great equations that cover glacial movements. But let's say there's just a 10 percent chance of significant melting in the next century. That would be catastrophic, and it's worth protecting ourselves from that risk."

Much of the public debate, however, has dealt in absolutes. The poster for Al Gore's global warming movie, An Inconvenient Truth, depicts a hurricane blowing out of a smokestack. Katrina's devastation is a major theme in the film.

Judith Curry, an atmospheric scientist at the Georgia Institute of Technology, has published several research papers arguing that a link between a warmer climate and hurricane activity exists, but she admits uncertainty remains.

Like North, Curry says she doubts there is undue tension among climate scientists but says Vranes could be sensing a scientific community reaction to some of the more alarmist claims in the public debate.

For years, Curry says, the public debate on climate change has been dominated by skeptics, such as Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and strong advocates such as NASA's James Hansen, who calls global warming a ticking "time bomb" and talks about the potential inundation of all global coastlines within a few centuries.

That may be changing, Curry says. As the public has become more aware of global warming, more scientists have been brought into the debate. These scientists are closer to Hansen's side, she says, but reflect a more moderate view.

"I think the rank-and-file are becoming more outspoken, and you're hearing a broader spectrum of ideas," Curry says.

Young and old tension
Other climate scientists, however, say there may be some tension as described by Vranes. One of them, Jeffrey Shaman, an assistant professor of atmospheric sciences at Oregon State University, says that unease exists primarily between younger researchers and older, more established scientists.

Shaman says some junior scientists may feel uncomfortable when they see older scientists making claims about the future climate, but he's not sure how widespread that sentiment may be. This kind of tension always has existed in academia, he adds, a system in which senior scientists hold some sway over the grants and research interests of graduate students and junior faculty members.

The question, he says, is whether it's any worse in climate science.

And if it is worse? Would junior scientists feel compelled to mute their findings, out of concern for their careers, if the research contradicts the climate change consensus?

"I can understand how a scientist without tenure can feel the community pressures," says environmental scientist Roger Pielke Jr., a colleague of Vranes' at the University of Colorado.

Pielke says he has felt pressure from his peers: A prominent scientist angrily accused him of being a skeptic, and a scientific journal editor asked him to "dampen" the message of a peer-reviewed paper to derail skeptics and business interests.

"The case for action on climate science, both for energy policy and adaptation, is overwhelming," Pielke says. "But if we oversell the science, our credibility is at stake."

(Surprised how very little was applied to investigating the other side of this story?  don't be)


Oooops
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2007, 02:20:16 PM »
http://www.privateislandsonline.com/


Not everyone beleives that the oceans are rising , talk to these realty companys that are selling island propery.

Someone ought to tell these buyers that coastal low lieing islandsare due to become shallow spots with their roofs awash.

Michael Tee

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2007, 04:06:09 PM »
<<Gore should attend this debate , even if he has to bring a scientist along as an adviser.>>

I'd go along with that. 

<< The ideal debate would include a scientist and a politician from both camps because the problems and potential solutions are both scientific and political and should not be addressed by a politician or a scientist alone.>>

I'd say it would be scientist versus scientist.  Once the science is resolved, the problems and the solutions (including lifestyle adjustments) can be known with as much certainty as is possible in the circumstances, and then the politicians can come in later to offer the available choices.

Michael Tee

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2007, 04:32:50 PM »
I don't think on an issue like this that you are ever going to have unanimity among all scientists.  Scientists were never unanimous that heavier-than-air craft could fly, or that a working atom bomb was possible.  So a few hold-outs or skeptics amongst a majority of scientic opinion should not, by their very existence, stop anyone from accepting the majority scientific opinion as the valid one and acting accordingly.

Obviously, scientific issues can't be decided by majority vote, even if all voters are limited to qualified scientists.  So it doesn't mean that the majority are right because they are a majority.

However, I think in something as serious as global warming, where the actual future of life on earth may be at stake, a few basic principles should be kept firmly in mind.

1.  A senior scientist all other things being equal, knows more than a junior scientist, the more senior he or she is, and the more junior the junior scientist is, the more this would tend to be true.

2.  The numerical difference between the two sides should be significant.  If they are split 50/50 or 60/40, more question is cast on the majority opinion than would be cast if the split were 98 to 2 per cent.

Sure, long shots pay off once in a great while.  But right or wrong, the politicians have to stake their bets on one group of scientists or another, and they have to use the best indicators at hand in deciding where to place their bets.

A clever journalist can take an interview with only one person, and by presenting that person in a favourable light, and his views as representative of a body of similar views, that one person can be given a status which his actual standing in the scientific community does not warrant.  By not listing the opponents of the interviews subject with their names and credentials, and comparing them with the supporters of Dr. Vranes' views, an impression is created that roughly equates the two opposing views as if equal in credibility.   I don't think that's right.

Also, I think a deliberate attempt was made to compensate for a major credibility defect on the Republican (Bg Business, i.e., Major Polluter) side of this issue, and that is the relatively obscure status of most of the Republicans' supporters; their unconventional views are treated as evidence of their intellectual integrity, the established authorities having various base reasons that explain the stances they have taken as unscientific (and in fact, irrational) in origin.  To which I say:  BS.

Michael Tee

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2007, 04:34:54 PM »
<<Not everyone beleives that the oceans are rising , talk to these realty companys that are selling island propery.>>

You got it, plane.  SELLING island property.  Not buying, selling.

Amianthus

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2007, 04:49:59 PM »
2.  The numerical difference between the two sides should be significant.  If they are split 50/50 or 60/40, more question is cast on the majority opinion than would be cast if the split were 98 to 2 per cent.

The split is much closer to 60/40 than 98/2. I would guess it is real close to about 70/30, from personal experience (I worked with the NESDIS group that studies Global Climate Change for about 2 years).

Again, the issue is not whether global warming is happening (that is pretty well decided) but the amount of impact humans have on the process. The roughly 70% on the issue is "a lot" versus the roughly 30% of "a little".
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2007, 05:46:31 PM »
Global warming?

No problem. XO assures us we can just convert the excess heat into electricity
========================================================
That was not the statement. I said that there is a recent technology that allows DIFFERENCES in heat contained in water to be used to generate electricity. This would not work if the entire planet were warmer.

The technology suggests that the difference between the temperature of water in the deep ocean and the surface be used to generate electricity. Global warming was not mentioned, but logically raising the temperature of the planet would not result in a useful application of the this technology.

Electricity can also be generated by tidal forces, particularly in the high latitudes, such as the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia, and from wind, such as in Southern Argentina, where there is a strong wind blowing all the time south of Bahia Blanca. Iceland heats nearly all its homes with geothermal energy.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2007, 06:08:04 PM »
<<Again, the issue is not whether global warming is happening (that is pretty well decided) but the amount of impact humans have on the process. The roughly 70% on the issue is "a lot" versus the roughly 30% of "a little".>>

If the split were only 70/30, I wouldn't want to wade into the issue unless the 70% were really reputable scientists at major instutions and/or impressive hot-shots with excellent track records at major institutions and the 30% were mostly schleppers with mediocre records at mediocre institutions.  Still no iron-clad guarantees of truth or error, but given the political dimensions of the dispute, at that point the minority position would start to smell a little bad.

Brassmask

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Re: Will Al Gore Melt?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2007, 06:15:36 PM »
Al Gore: The stockmarket is functionally insane
by Barcelona [Subscribe]
Mon Jan 22, 2007 at 11:41:02 AM CST
On December 11, 2006, Al Gore spent an entire day at the Harvard Business School as part of his world-wide campaign against global warming. He had a well-honed, brilliantly targeted message for the young would-be MBA's in attendance. The crux of it: The stock market is functionally insane and civilization can't continue operating planet earth like a business in liquidation. 

Barcelona's diary :: ::
In his speech, entitled A Changing Business Climate Gore argued that

the stock market is "functionally insane" ... and what is needed is a new approach to measuring value... Over thirty years ago the average stock holding period was seven years while today the average mutual fund turns over its entire portfolio in less than eleven months. This speculation, or "chasing of the froth" as he refers to it, ignores the environment, communities, social welfare, and other important factors that have real value.
(Gore's) firm, Generation Investment Management,

essentially creates tools for the future. In their evaluation of the automobile industry, for example, Gore spoke of the remarkable accuracy with which his team predicted the current state of affairs for General Motors versus Toyota, thanks to the application of a unique measurement they call the "carbon intensity of profits."

While Gore and his firm are clearly taking big steps toward a more sustainable future, the question on many students' minds was: What can we do? When asked this during the Q&A session, Gore advocated "carbon neutrality" in which individuals offset their carbon emissions by retiring CO2 emission credits from a market such as the Chicago Climate Exchange.
Gore's admonition to the students that

civilization is "operating planet earth like a business in liquidation"
is proof that Gore gets the true nature of the challenge posed by the climate crisis. Capitalism as we know it can't be sustained and a new system based on environmental sustainability, long-term thinking and an overarching devotion to the common good must replace it if the human species is to survive. 


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/22/12135/7885