Author Topic: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority  (Read 2849 times)

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sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2012, 01:52:28 PM »
Religious groups should have seen Obamacare betrayal coming
Mandatory insurance coverage for contraception, abortifacients enrages Catholics, other groups.
Feb 9th, 2012
   

Thomas Jefferson said: "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

The third president wasn't Catholic and, arguably, probably not Christian. But he understood that for the government to compel people to pay for something they find morally repugnant is "sinful and tyrannical."

The 44th president clearly thinks otherwise.

Catholic hospitals and charities are discovering the harm inherent in President Barack Obama's intrusive health care law. They are joined by many others, including Lutheran, Jewish and Evangelical Christian groups, vehemently protesting mandates that employers must provide contraceptive and abortifacient coverage, even when it violates their constitutionally protected religious beliefs. We join their complaint.

President Obama has elevated his vision of "enormous health benefits" for women by mandating those services, despite the blatant violation of the First Amendment's guarantee of free exercise of religion.

Florida Republican Sen. Marco Rubio characterized the mandate as an assault on "the constitutional right of religious expression," while Republican House Speaker John Boehner, like Mr. Rubio, a Catholic, concurred and vowed to stop the regulation. Even "a handful of high-profile Catholic Democrats are bailing on the president and joining the GOP chorus," Politico reported.

Unfortunately, many, including Catholic organizations, paved the way for such government intrusion with years of support for the ever-expanding role of Washington in private matters under the guise of doing good. Now they are learning at what cost.

Obamacare's virtually open-ended regulatory scheme gives government the power to dictate whatever the government deems necessary.

For decades, the entitlement-minded willingly accepted government-bestowed benefits in return for giving up freedoms. Now they discover they have traded constitutional rights for benefits to be determined solely by their supposedly benevolent governors.

The insidious pattern typically first offers benefits, such as taxpayer-subsidized pharmaceutical drugs, in return for voluntary compliance with rules determined by the government on eligibility, cost and coverage.
If you want federal benefits, you must do what the government demands. But every new authority granted to government diminishes individuals' free choices and hastens this inevitable outcome.

"[W]e have known for a long time where Obamacare's implementation was heading," said Matthew Staver, chairman of Liberty Counsel Action, a nonprofit advocacy group dedicated to advancing religious freedom.

Now Obamacare has reached the ultimate phase of government intrusion. Voluntary compliance is not an option. Everyone must buy health care insurance, and bureaucrats have decided that coverage must include what the government demands. You will be forced to pay for even what you may abhor.

But naaaaa, Government isn 't making the Catholics, or any other religious ogranization, do anything.  BsB & Xo said so

« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 03:18:15 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2012, 06:04:54 PM »
The Gospel according to Obama

At the National Prayer Breakfast last week, seeking theological underpinning for his drive to raise taxes on the rich, President Obama invoked the highest possible authority. His policy, he testified “as a Christian,” “coincides with Jesus’s teaching that ‘for unto whom much is given, much shall be taken required.’?”

Now, I’m no theologian, but I’m fairly certain that neither Jesus nor his rabbinic forebears, when speaking of giving, meant some obligation to the state. You tithe the priest, not the tax man

The Judeo-Christian tradition commands personal generosity as represented, for example, by the biblical injunction against retrieving any sheaf left behind while harvesting one’s own field. That is for the gleaners — “the poor and the alien” (Leviticus 19:10). Like Ruth in the field of Boaz. As far as I can tell, that charitable transaction involved no mediation by the IRS.

But no matter. Let’s assume that Obama has biblical authority for hiking the marginal tax rate exactly 4.6 points for couples making more than $250,000 (depending, of course, on the prevailing shekel-to-dollar exchange rate). Let’s stipulate that Obama’s prayer-breakfast invocation of religion as vindicating his politics was not, God forbid, crass, hypocritical, self-serving electioneering, but a sincere expression of a social-gospel Christianity that sees good works as central to the very concept of religiosity.

Fine. But this Gospel according to Obama has a rival — the newly revealed Gospel according to Sebelius, over which has erupted quite a contretemps. By some peculiar logic, it falls to the health and human services secretary to promulgate the definition of “religious” — for the purposes, for example, of exempting religious institutions from certain regulatory dictates.

Such exemptions are granted in grudging recognition that, whereas the rest of civil society may be broken to the will of the state’s regulators, our quaint Constitution grants special autonomy to religious institutions.

Accordingly, it would be a mockery of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment if, for example, the Catholic Church were required by law to freely provide such “health care services” (in secularist parlance) as contraception, sterilization and pharmacological abortion — to which Catholicism is doctrinally opposed as a grave contravention of its teachings about the sanctity of life.

Ah. But there would be no such Free Exercise violation if the institutions so mandated are deemed, by regulatory fiat, not religious.

And thus, the word came forth from Sebelius decreeing the exact criteria required (a) to meet her definition of “religious” and thus (b) to qualify for a modicum of independence from newly enacted state control of American health care, under which the aforementioned Sebelius and her phalanx of experts determine everything — from who is to be covered, to which treatments are to be guaranteed free of charge.

Criterion 1: A “religious institution” must have “the inculcation of religious values as its purpose.” But that’s not the purpose of Catholic charities; it’s to give succor to the poor. That’s not the purpose of Catholic hospitals; it’s to give succor to the sick. Therefore, they don’t qualify as “religious” — and therefore can be required, among other things, to provide free morning-after abortifacients.

Criterion 2: Any exempt institution must be one that “primarily employs” and “primarily serves persons who share its religious tenets.” Catholic soup kitchens do not demand religious IDs from either the hungry they feed or the custodians they employ. Catholic charities and hospitals — even Catholic schools — do not turn away Hindu or Jew.

Their vocation is universal, precisely the kind of universal love-thy-neighbor vocation that is the very definition of religiosity as celebrated by the Gospel of Obama.

Yet according to the Gospel of Sebelius, these very same Catholic institutions are not religious at all — under the secularist assumption that religion is what happens on Sunday under some Gothic spire, while good works are “social services” properly rendered up unto Caesar.

This all would be merely the story of contradictory theologies, except for this: Sebelius is Obama’s appointee. She works for him. These regulations were his call. Obama authored both gospels.

Therefore: To flatter his faith-breakfast guests and justify his tax policies, Obama declares good works to be the essence of religiosity. Yet he turns around and, through Sebelius, tells the faithful who engage in good works that what they’re doing is not religion at all. You want to do religion? Get thee to a nunnery. You want shelter from the power of the state? Get out of your soup kitchen and back to your pews. Outside, Leviathan rules

1st Obama chapter 12, vs 1 thru 8
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2012, 12:11:46 PM »
Obama has easily solved the dilemma.  Everyone gets BC items from their insurance company, at no extra charge. The Church pays nothing.

That is leadership, as opposed to the GOP crap that was being flung around all week.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2012, 05:14:20 PM »
So....riddle me this....if what the GOP alone (despite the fact there were plenty of dems as well) was "flinging all this crap", why did Obama have to change anything??  If it was all crap, there's no need to any change.  And you call that "leadership"??

Not to mention how it torpedoes both yours and Bsb's attempted defense of Obama, that the Government wasn't really making/mandating churches, in particular the Catholic church, to do anything

Ouch
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2012, 06:17:01 PM »
It was clearly all crap they were flinging around about how this was some huge oppression of the Church, which in fact it was the Church that was attempting to oppress its workers by denying them benefits everyone else gets.

Now the stupid Church cannot claim that it is being forced to pay one dime, and its workers can get the BC pills they are entitled to.

Obama won, and the Church is denied the ability to prevent its workers from getting BC pills.

But no, sirs will never admit this. Keep flinging crap, sirs. It is what you do best.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2012, 06:40:15 PM »
It was clearly all crap they were flinging around about how this was some huge oppression of the Church...

THEN, there would have been no need to change anything, would there.  Bzzz...thanks for playing.  We have some fine parting gifts for you


..which in fact it was the Church that was attempting to oppress its workers by denying them benefits everyone else gets.

BECAUSE ITS PART OF THEIR RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE.  AND NO ONE IS STOPPING THEM FROM GOING ELSEWHERE FOR THEIR HEALTHCARE, ergo NO OPPRESSION.  WHAT PART OF THAT ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE GRASPING??  Even your annointed Obama finally got that.


Keep flinging crap, sirs. It is what you do best.

The only fling here is the flavor of your coolaide

« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 06:55:12 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2012, 07:44:23 PM »
You make no sense at all.
You seem incapable of rational thought.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 08:05:18 PM »
And there was the bell.  When Xo is incapable of further trying to defend an indefensible position he resorts to either
a) a littany of namecalling
b) inferred derrogatory namecalling

In this case, the latter
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2012, 08:59:31 PM »
Quote
Quote
Now the stupid Church cannot claim that it is being forced to pay one dime, and its workers can get the BC pills they are entitled to.

Why is there this entitlement to BC pills?

Who says that BC pills are a right?

Why must they be prescribed by a Dr. if there is an entitlement to these things.

Why aren't they dispensed like condoms and just eliminate the gatekeepers.




Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2012, 06:03:20 PM »
Why is there this entitlement to BC pills?
Pregnancy is a woman's health issue. There is an entitlement to health.

Who says that BC pills are a right?
I say they are a right. I say health s a right, and most of the country agrees.

Why must they be prescribed by a Dr. if there is an entitlement to these things.
Because the specific dosage must take into account the weight, age and other factors of the patient for best results. Ask any doctor.

Why aren't they dispensed like condoms and just eliminate the gatekeepers.
Because, unlike condoms they affect hormonal levels, which are not universal among all women.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2012, 06:04:57 PM »
When sirs starts talking about "coolaide", he has abandoned rational discourse for insults.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2012, 06:13:06 PM »
And there again was the bell.  When Xo is incapable of further trying to defend an indefensible position he resorts to either
a) a littany of namecalling
b) inferred derrogatory namecalling

In this case, the latter again, seeing as sirs has made no such insults
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2012, 06:15:01 PM »
Why is there this entitlement to BC pills?
Pregnancy is a woman's health issue. There is an entitlement to health.

Wrong....there is no "right to healthcare".  Yet again the Constitution agrees with that
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2012, 08:53:33 PM »
Quote
There is an entitlement to health.

Says who?

kimba1

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2012, 02:22:42 AM »
Don't know about entitlement. But I wish I have the option to have insurance.