Author Topic: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!  (Read 23466 times)

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hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2012, 03:05:23 AM »
Trying to overthrow the Taliban without closing Iraq would have been an open flank...

Um, where is the common border between Iraq and Afghanistan?

There isn't one. In between them lies the entire country of Iran. You reckon the mullahs there would have helped Saddam?

Saddam might have been a trouble maker, but that was no reason for us to invade. No, the reason passed out by Bushco was that Saddam had WMD's and direct ties to Al Qaeda, neither of which he actually had. I knew it, others knew it, his intelligence sources knew it, but those sources were ignored in favor of the ones the administration wanted to hear, that we had to go in and topple Saddam. Their information was at best faulty, and at worst contrived to give them an excuse they could feed to the American people to garner support for the invasion.

I absolutely despise Bush and his cadre for what they did to the American people and for the 4,000 plus American lives they threw away, not to mention the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of innocent Iraqi civilians.

But that's not the reason I'm here. I'm here to try to point out to some people that there is more than one side to the story, but they are not going to see that relying on rabid partisan posts that are there only to smear 'the other guy'. I'm not endorsing anyone, or trying to smear anyone, I'm just trying to get folks to look at things fairly and objectively. It may or may not influence their decision, but at least they can make that decision as informed as possible, and not rely on what the party feeds them. 
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sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2012, 03:45:22 AM »
...glad to see you returning to a discussion you seemed to have washed your hands of...

Oh dear me, no, this is a quite different discussion. Same thread perhaps, but a different discussion entirely.

Not really, but please continue


I was just curious, looking back with the Search function, why this cut in the State Department security budget had not been mentioned earlier, especially by those who are squawking so loudly about the security situation, or about fairness and a level playing field. I guess it only counts if it's fair or level in your favor.

Probably because it had no bearing on the budget that it was sitting on to provide for precisely this kind of request.


Oh, almost forgot to ask, does anyone else think this might be the reason the topic of security at Benghazi never came up in the last debate? I mean, after Ryan brought it up in the VP debate, and Joltin' Joe Biden threw that little tidbit at him about the GOP cutting the security budget?

IF that were the case, Obama would have been touting that, in his opening statement
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2012, 10:45:36 AM »
Promiximity is not all there is to an open flank.

Saddam would have seen oppurtunity in our extremely long resupply trail.

Did Zebignew Bresniki see an open flank for Russian military efforts in Afganistan?

Yes he did.

I don't see why Saddam ccould not have gotten some cooperation form the mullas also , didn't they supply wepons to the insurgency in Iraq?

sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2012, 12:48:50 PM »
Precisely.  Not to mention the fact how so many have taken so much out of context, both in verbage (see mushroom clouds) and actions (see mission accomplished moment) to try and paint Bush as supposedly having lied us into war in Iraq.  I recall one of the inspectors afterwards referencing that following the events of 911, and what the intel had told us about Saddam's stockpiles and connections to Terrorist organizations, that it would have been grossly incompetent had he NOT gone into Iraq.  Of course, so easy to be a Monday morning QB, after the fact. 

So Bush gets raked over the coals for actions he should have taken as CnC, and supported by vast majority of Congress in doing so, but Obama gets a pass because....well, ONLY 4 people died I guess.  This was gross incompetence at minimum, with a potential for criminal cover-up at its max.  Efforts to try and get him off by trying to make this as some budgetary decision in congress is about as weak as Obama's debate was in round 1, especially with the billions that the State Dept was sitting on.  Perhaps their decision to buy a bunch of Chevy Volts wasn't the best judgement
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2012, 04:41:57 PM »
Precisely.  Not to mention the fact how so many have taken so much out of context, both in verbage (see mushroom clouds) and actions (see mission accomplished moment) to try and paint Bush as supposedly having lied us into war in Iraq.  I recall one of the inspectors afterwards referencing that following the events of 911, and what the intel had told us about Saddam's stockpiles and connections to Terrorist organizations, that it would have been grossly incompetent had he NOT gone into Iraq.

Of course you would believe that.

Of course, so easy to be a Monday morning QB, after the fact. 

I believe if you look back, I was warning folks well before we actually invaded Iraq that the WMD/ties to Al Qaeda claims were bullshit and Bushco was just using them as excuses to con the American public and lead us into an unneccesary war. That ain't Monday morning quarterbackng, my friend.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2012, 04:53:26 PM »
It was obvious to me that invading Afghanistan was a dangerous proposition, and invading Iraq was gross stupidity, and the war than followed in both countries was poorly fought and managed for at least two years.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2012, 04:53:58 PM »
Promiximity is not all there is to an open flank.

Saddam would have seen oppurtunity in our extremely long resupply trail.

Did Zebignew Bresniki see an open flank for Russian military efforts in Afganistan?

Yes he did.

I don't see why Saddam ccould not have gotten some cooperation form the mullas also , didn't they supply wepons to the insurgency in Iraq?

First, Russia, or the old USSR to be precise, did share a border with Afghanistan.

And second, before we invaded Iraq, remember they had just come off a long and bitter war with Iran. The mullahs in Iran, i seriously doubt, would have lifted a finger to help Saddam's government.
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Plane

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2012, 05:28:15 PM »
Promiximity is not all there is to an open flank.

Saddam would have seen oppurtunity in our extremely long resupply trail.

Did Zebignew Bresniki see an open flank for Russian military efforts in Afganistan?

Yes he did.

I don't see why Saddam ccould not have gotten some cooperation form the mullas also , didn't they supply wepons to the insurgency in Iraq?

First, Russia, or the old USSR to be precise, did share a border with Afghanistan.

And second, before we invaded Iraq, remember they had just come off a long and bitter war with Iran. The mullahs in Iran, i seriously doubt, would have lifted a finger to help Saddam's government.


Precicely so, and the USA does not share a border with Afganistan.
But did Jimmy Carter , ZBIG and congressman brown see an exposed flank there?

How could we expect Saddam to behave better than Jimmy Carter?

hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2012, 09:08:09 PM »
Precicely so, and the USA does not share a border with Afganistan.
But did Jimmy Carter , ZBIG and congressman brown see an exposed flank there?

How could we expect Saddam to behave better than Jimmy Carter?

We didn't have a border with Viet Nam either. Zbig, Carter, and later the Reagan administration, saw our involvement in Afghanistan as an extension of the Cold War. The people of Afghanistan were rebelling against a Communist government that invited a Soviet invasion to try to keep them in power, and began killing off large chunks of the population. The US at the time saw it the same way they had seen Viet Nam, an intervention to stop communists.

Not sure what you mean about expecting Saddam to be better than Carter. Saddam was a monster, but he was Iraq's monster, and should have been left to them to ultimately deal with. Carter just wasn't all that bright.
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Plane

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2012, 10:56:43 PM »
Precicely so, and the USA does not share a border with Afganistan.
But did Jimmy Carter , ZBIG and congressman brown see an exposed flank there?

How could we expect Saddam to behave better than Jimmy Carter?

We didn't have a border with Viet Nam either. Zbig, Carter, and later the Reagan administration, saw our involvement in Afghanistan as an extension of the Cold War. The people of Afghanistan were rebelling against a Communist government that invited a Soviet invasion to try to keep them in power, and began killing off large chunks of the population. The US at the time saw it the same way they had seen Viet Nam, an intervention to stop communists.

Not sure what you mean about expecting Saddam to be better than Carter. Saddam was a monster, but he was Iraq's monster, and should have been left to them to ultimately deal with. Carter just wasn't all that bright.

I mean that when Zebignew Brisniki saw an oppurtunity and an exposed vunerability , he talked Carter into exploiting it.

I do NOT expect better behavior from Saddam Hussein.

If given an oppurtunity to harm the US and get away with it , I would expect him to exploit it a lot.

It is like having your queen facing the opposite queen and unprotected, and it is her turn. You start to wonder how you let that get there. So if you see that coming you do what you can.

Do you really expect that Saddam would have become nice to us if we had taken the pressure off, or that he would have sat on his hands while we became vunerable?




sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2012, 04:01:53 AM »
Precisely.  Not to mention the fact how so many have taken so much out of context, both in verbage (see mushroom clouds) and actions (see mission accomplished moment) to try and paint Bush as supposedly having lied us into war in Iraq.  I recall one of the inspectors afterwards referencing that following the events of 911, and what the intel had told us about Saddam's stockpiles and connections to Terrorist organizations, that it would have been grossly incompetent had he NOT gone into Iraq.

Of course you would believe that.

Yea, facts and common sense can be a bad habit to believe in.  But that's a hardship I've accepted


Of course, so easy to be a Monday morning QB, after the fact. 

I believe if you look back, I was warning folks well before we actually invaded Iraq that the WMD/ties to Al Qaeda claims were bullshit and Bushco was just using them as excuses to con the American public and lead us into an unneccesary war. That ain't Monday morning quarterbackng, my friend.

I believe also, that if you look back, folks with far more access to intel, from both sides of the political spectrum, than yourself, as well as across the globe, had come to a differing conclusion, one that was far more logical in thought, given the intel we had at the time, not to mention the terrorist ties that were determined not to be BS, & coupled with the events of 911. made going into Iraq pretty much a necessity

Look, you can disagree with War, opine that it was "unnecessary", or even accurately claim that "you knew better", as it relates to Iraq.  The point becomes how irrational it is to try and claim Bush "lied us into war", when not 1 shred of proof can be provided that shows that Bush, and Bush alone KNEW Saddam had no WMD, but took us into war with the claim he did.  All you have is that Bush was more likely to go into Iraq, then let's say a Senator Kerry, or former VP Gore, given identical circumstances & intel.  That in no way, even remotely comes close to the notion that Bush lied us into war

I'll also add that if you asked most Americans (and this has been polled), they absolutely believed it wasn't a matter of if, it was simply a matter of when, we were going to get hit again after 911.  I would have been one of them.  But heaven forbid you give Bush any credit for taking this fight to them, on their grounds, where they've had to expert a predominance of their resources & leadership in trying to take back what we pull out from under them.  No terrorists attacks on our soil, since 911.  Nor would Obama have gotten Bin Laden either without the EIT's applied under Bush. 

But rest assured, thanks to your buddy Obama, AlQeada, and their supporters are being able to regroup, retrain, and being presented full on countries for possible take-over
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2012, 04:42:51 AM »
Do you really expect that Saddam would have become nice to us if we had taken the pressure off, or that he would have sat on his hands while we became vunerable?

I think you misunderstand me. We aready knew Saddam had no WMD's, and due to the sanctions he had neither the capability nor raw materials to make them. There was no reason for us to invade, as he was not much more than a nuisance to us at the time. The sanctions were hurting him and the Iraqis; he and his sons and his regime were taking their frustrations out on the only victims they could lash out at, fellow Iraqis. We could have stayed in place, surrounding him and lending covert and not so covert support to the opposition, and let the Iraqi people depose him. However long it took, he wasn't going anywhere; Saudi Arbia, with US troops, were to the south, Kuwait with US troops and Iran were to the east, Turkey to the north, a NATO ally known for vigorously defending their border. Syria is to the east, with another despotic ruler trying to hang on to what he has. There wasn't really anywhere to run, and all Saddam was doing was spinning in place, gradually self destructing by turning his own people against him. Barring the presence of WMD's, which we already knew he didn't have and didn't have the raw materials to make, there was absolutely no reason for us to invade when we did. We could have let the Iraqi opposition get organized, aided them as we could from outside iraq, and once their rebellion was in full swing cme to their aid inside Iraq.

As to knowing full well Saddam did not have WMD's nor the capability to make them, Bushco already had that intelligence from the start. The sanctions were working, we already knew what Iraq had and didn't have, but here's the rub. Bush was getting intelligence from several sources, and the ones in the know were telling him there were no WMD's and no substantial capability for making any. Other sources, with more of a stake if we were to go to war with Iraq, including a supposed Iraqi defector, claimed otherwise. Bushco pushed aside the information from the sources they should have relied on, and went with those who told them what they wanted to hear, that we should invade Iraq. They BS'ed Colin Powell to sell it to the UN and the American Public, and over 4,000 dead American troops and billions of dollars later, we know the truth - there were no WMD's.

So whining that the administration went with 'the best information they had' is bullshit. The best information they had told them all along there were no WMD's and no substantial capability for manufacturing any.
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Plane

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2012, 05:42:38 AM »
So you have forgotten how close he was to wriggleing out of those sanctions, there were holes in that embargo that were going to grow.
Saddam used the nine year cease fire to consolidate his power and murder his opponents, his chosen successor would have been one of his sons .

We did have good reason to expect Saddam to resume his WMD manufacture as soon as possible , but that is entirely beside the point I am making .

If we were going to maintain a war effort in Afganistan whil also maintaining an embargo on Saddam , he would have an easy oppurtunity to stab us in the back.

I suppose you can be strangleing someone , and stop, but , I don't think you can be strangleing someone , stop , and ask them to wait a little while so that you can go down the block to kill his even worse neighbor before you return to finish the kill on him.

There was never a real end to hostilitys when Bush 41 broke off the attack, Saddam managed to kill most of the Iriquis that might have made a good alternative government , he was shooting at US aircraft weakly weekly, and he was pushing propaganda about how the santions were starving Iriqui children.

I think your idea tht the sanctions were enough and that Saddam would have been reduced or reformed by them not credable and counter the evidence availible at the time and since.

If GWBush had not overthrown Saddam we would be discussing now how stupid he was not to tip him over while it was reltively easy, cause by now Saddam would have recovered all that he ever lost , would have murdered even more of his opponents , and would have stabbed our backs in Afgasnistan to increase our losses without loss to himself.

hnumpah

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2012, 09:04:07 AM »
The sanctions could have been strengthened, his air force, anti-aircraft and missile sites taken out, and the opposition strengthened, all without a full scale invasion, and we could have still finished the job in Afghanistan first. We had enough allies willing to help invade, how much easier it might have been to get them to assist with air support to enforce the sanctions and take out his air force and any anti-aircraft batteries without risking ground troops.

And I love this bit -

I suppose you can be strangleing someone , and stop, but , I don't think you can be strangleing someone , stop , and ask them to wait a little while so that you can go down the block to kill his even worse neighbor before you return to finish the kill on him.

Isn't that exactly what we did with Afghanistan, when we decided to concentrate on Iraq? We took the pressure off the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan while we concentrated on Iraq, drawing the fighting in Afghanistan out to over ten years now.

Some of us are still marvelling that Bush41 was stupid enough not to finish the job the first time around.

As for Sirs, i do not recall ever coming out and saying Bush, personally, lied us into the war in Iraq. I have left open the possibility that he was misled by his vice president and advisors (which I refer to as Bushco, which may have led to your confusion), which I believe is what actually happened.

And you can quit being an ass about my 'buddy Obama'. Once again you have jumped to the wrong conclusion, which says a lot about the common sense you claim to have. But then, you're Sirs, what else can we expect?
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sirs

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Re: White House told of militant claim two hours after Libya attack!
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2012, 01:36:37 PM »
As for Sirs, i do not recall ever coming out and saying Bush, personally, lied us into the war in Iraq.

Sure could have fooled most people.  Your inferences were pretty transparent.  But if you want to back down from that position, that'd be a very rational thing to do


I have left open the possibility that he was misled by his vice president and advisors (which I refer to as Bushco, which may have led to your confusion), which I believe is what actually happened.

Misled HOW?  Now it's the VP and his Advisers who KNEW Saddam had no WMD, and convinced Bush that he did??  PROOF is required there, my friend.  Your say so on the "possibility" is hardly a valid indictment


And you can quit being an ass about my 'buddy Obama'. Once again you have jumped to the wrong conclusion, which says a lot about the common sense you claim to have.

Considering how fast you came out of the chute, trying to defend Obama about Benghazi, trying to throw the blame everywhere else, such as the Congress, all the while not once criticizing his tactic of "going with the intel that he had at the time" that you crucified Bush over, not once criticizing his week on end of trying to make this about non-existant protests and some anti-muslim video.......well, kinda hard not to make such a logical common sense conclusion


But then, you're Sirs, what else can we expect?

Objectivity, logic, and a focus on the facts
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle