Israel launches aerial assaults on Gaza

[Xavier_Onassis]

Because Israel is stronger militarily, the Arabs cling to the underdog image of poor refugees under occupation and siege by evil Israelis, thus eliciting sympathy.

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This is because the Gazans are, in fact, poor refugees under occupation and siege.

Do you dispute that they are poor?
Do you dispute that they are prevented from leaving Gaza by land, sea or air by the Israelis?
Do you dispute that their homes have been destroyed by Israelis, who then prevent them from rebuilding by banning cement from entering Gaza?

The rockets are strategically a dumb idea. They will not defeat the Israelis with rockets.

The Israelis will not end rocket attacks by invasions, bombings and assassinations, either.

Both sides are guilty of typical Middle Eastern braggadocio, vengeance and countervengeance stupidity.

The Gazans and West Bankers need to figure out how to turn massive world opinion against the Zionist colonizers. Gandhi ended the British Empire, mostly with passive resistance and  public relations.

[Plane]

Did the United States prevent the Tories from coming back?

I like this principle of might makes right. It means I can take over any property I want by force of arms, kick the owners out, take their home and keep it, and they have no recourse under the law and no right to return. That seems to be what is being espoused here. I might become a militant social climber.

I didn't say I liked it , though if my ancestors had not been driven out of Scotland I might be there talking like Robert Burns. So it turned out well for me.

When the Arab armys were gathering up for the purpose of making war on Isreal , did they have a plan for the refugees?
Were there going to be any?

Ah ah ah, I asked first - did the United States prevent the Tories from coming back?

Depends on how technical you want to be about it.
No leagal measures were taken , I don't know if any returned or not.
But no leagal measure was taken to expell them either,
It was just the Mobs.

The measures used to expell the Cherokee were, strictly speaking, extra leagal, the courts found in the Cherokees favor, but by orders of the govenor of Georgia and the President of the US pretty much ignored the Supreme Court and cancelled the earlyer treaty .

After the Civil War a group of Confederate familys who felt put upon by the circumstances of reconstruction moved to Brazil and their decendants are there still , Mitt Romneys family includes a bunch of Mexican citizens because his grandparents felt the environment of the US to be unfavorable.

A universal right of return would move us all, I even have an ancestor who lost his farm when a lynch mob threatened his life for supporting the abolition of slavery. I hear it was a good farm too, but my claim on it is pretty diluted by time and his not being a direct ancestor anyway.

Would I rather return to one of the farms in Alabama or North Carolina tha my family has lost to banks and other circumstances , or would I like to return to Scotland?
How moot can you get?
Maybe I should bear my grudge as a decendant of Picts and demand that Hadrians wall be unbuilt so that I can have my bit of York.

The further you go the more unrealistic you get , conquest and migration does change things and the constituancy for the status quo are those who are doing alright.

It is a lot better to build a fairness within the borders as they are than to change them , this is a general principal that I think applies well to Isreal and Palistine. A state of war works more twards changing the border than establishing any fairness.

I think it entirely possible that the Palistinians could get worse off, I would give that potential good odds too.

[Xavier_Onassis]

After the Revolution, a lot of Canadians came into the US, and many Americans went to Canada. By the 1840's, most opposition to the English and the Royalists in the US was gone. Irish Catholics were looked down upon because they were poor, illiterate, often spoke little English, and were Catholics, ignorantly guided by the Pope. But there was plenty of land elsewhere, and few returned or had any desire to return to the old country.

It was nothing like Palisrael, as there was unlimited land for all in both countries. Canadians blended in with the US population better than anyone. Arabs will never blend in with Jews or vice versa. At this stage, both sides are held together by a sense that they are martyrs fighting for survival against unjust oppressors.

Again, the rockets will not accomplish anything, nor will invading Gaza yet again. The more Israel annoys Egypt, the more weapons will be smuggled in. The desert between Egypt and Sudan is porous, and the smuggling tunnels into Gaza will simply be dug and redug again and again. Pissing off Egypt will not solve Israel's problems,it will only make it worse.

A well-planned PR campaign by the Palestinians is the best way to go. Force the Israelis to publicly oppress the Palestinians, and get it on tape and show the world what they are like. It worked for Gandhi, it was even useful in getting the French out of Algerie.

[sirs]

Well we could do like Hitler, build the camps and gas chambers and ovens. We're halfway there already.

Not only did that not even make an attempt to answer the question, I fail to see anywhere where the Israelis are rounding up anyone and murdering them via your ethnic clensing charge.  Care to try again?

What can be done, outside of right of return and land for peace, that will bring about some form of middle east peace, which includes security for Israel and sovereignty for Palestinians?

[Plane]

 There was enormous displacement in the wake of WWI WWII and the cold war.

There is really no right of return for most of the displaced.

Would you advocate a right of return for Vietnam, Tibet, Cuba ,Armenia, Croatia, etc. etc. etc...

A right of return would have to be pecular and limited to Palestinians , there is not much precident.

A global right of return would be impossibly disruptive , it is hard to imagine the Humog returning the the mountains of Vietnam or the Jews returning to the citys of  Poland.

If the Palistinians are willing to engauge in give and take there might be a middle found , but the middle is not near makeing Jeruselem the capitol of an Arab state for the first time ever, nor drawing borders that include salilents that are practicly a completed pincher .

What makes desegregation a good idea for Americans but anathama for Jews and Arabs?

Jews and Arabs have more in common than randomly selected Americans.

[sirs]

So, back to my question...outside of right of return and land for peace, what can be done that will bring about some form of middle east peace, which includes security for Israel (literally a right to exist, right where they are) and sovereignty for Palestinians?

[Xavier_Onassis]

The problem of the Palestinians is one of poverty, not a lack of land. Some of those displaced and driven out by the Israelis were farmers, but those people are mostly dead and none of the rest are likely to farm anything.  The reasons for their poverty is a lack of money and a way of earning more of it. Gaza is very densely populated, but so is Singapore. Gaza has sunny beaches, so tourism could be an asset. The same is true of fishing and growing hothouse vegetables. Israel has money, and owes the Palestinians for its taking their land.

Arabs and Israelis may have monotheism and chromosomes in common, but they are culturally inflexible as Americans are not. The religion is the essence of being Jewish or Muslim. Religion is NOT normally as important to most Americans.

Catholics and Protestants get married all the time, no big deal, despite the various churches being against it. Many Jews and Muslims are simply fanatics, and many more are led by fanatics.

It is silly to talk about anyone else returning or not returning, as there is no problem with most of those you mentioned. There is no one size fits all when it comes to cultural differences, each culture is different,and each pair of cultures has different perspectives.

[hnumpah]

...The further you go the more unrealistic you get , conquest and migration does change things and the constituancy for the status quo are those who are doing alright...

Ah, but the Palestinian problem does not go back that far, only to 1947 - 65 years. And while the UN has passed human rights conventions for the right of return, and resolutions against the continued building and occupying of settlements by the Israelis, they have ignored them, and the US has not enforced them - unlike in Iraq, where the violations of UN resolutions were cited as one of the excuses supporting the invasion. Why the double standard? Oil? The Judeo-Christian heritage? Because Saddam threatened DaddyBush? Why is it we can use human rights abuses and violations of UN resolutions as an excuse to invade one country, and not use them as a reason to prevent them in another? The Israelis have ignored them and stalled for 65 years, just so people like you can make the argument that, oh well,, it's too late now.

It wasn't that long ago the US offered reparations to the Japanes Americans displaced in WWII. It also wasn't that long ago the US offered a settlement to the Sioux Indians for the Black Hills. What has Israel offered to the Palestinians other than continued exile from their homes in Israel?

[hnumpah]

There was enormous displacement in the wake of WWI WWII and the cold war.

There is really no right of return for most of the displaced...

They have the right, in most cases. Whether they want to or not is a different matter. The Palestinians are not even allowed the right to return at all.

[sirs]

There was enormous displacement in the wake of WWI WWII and the cold war.

There is really no right of return for most of the displaced...

They have the right, in most cases. Whether they want to or not is a different matter. The Palestinians are not even allowed the right to return at all.

So now that we've put that to rest.....what can be done that will bring about some form of middle east peace, which includes security for Israel (literally a right to exist, right where they are) and sovereignty for Palestinians?

[Xavier_Onassis]

As if sirs could put anything to rest. I would say that they DO have a right to return. But they will need to exchange it for money and economic assistance, just as some American and Canadian Indians have done in the past.
Israel definitely owes the Palestinians.

[sirs]

As if sirs could put anything to rest. I would say that they DO have a right to return.

The question of course is hypothetical, despite the literal nazi's efforts.  As it's already been referenced why right of return is a non-starter, back to the question......what can be done that will bring about some form of middle east peace, which includes security for Israel (literally a right to exist, right where they are) and sovereignty for Palestinians?

[Xavier_Onassis]

The Israelis give the Palestinians money, job training,and jobs. The Palestinians agree not to kill Israelis. The Israelis withdraw from the West Bank and Hebron and stop hogging the water

[sirs]

What gurantees that Palestinians not kill Israelis?

But let's run with this.  Israelis "give" Palestinians money, job training, and even jobs.  Any subsequent agreement is going to have to include some contingency in the event some folks are still hell bent on killing Israelis.  So, before any withdrawl, there's gonna have to be some time to allow the Palestinians to back up the agreement of no killing.  I'd say 10 year, but I know in this day and age of now, now, now, I'll reduce that to 4.  So, if after 4 years, no Israelis are killed by Palestinians or terrorist organizations that the Palestinians support, then the Israelis are obliged to withdraw from the West Bank

So, is this a start?

[Plane]

  What has Israel offered to the Palestinians other than continued exile from their homes in Israel?

They were offered full citizenship and the right to live anywhere they wanted in Isreli territory.
Some took this offer and elect from their own number members of the legislature.

The arab citizens of Isreal are not all happy with their lot , but they got a better deal than those who jumped the other way.

Do you really favor that the right of return be a real right for everyone displaced since 1967?

Is there any way to enforce this in South East Asia?