Author Topic: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis  (Read 9553 times)

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sirs

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BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« on: November 29, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »
Once again, billionaire investor Warren Buffett urges his fellow high-on-the-hoggers to pay more in taxes. “Only in Grover Norquist’s imagination,” says Buffett, do taxes make much of a difference in how people invest. “So let’s forget about the rich and ultra-rich going on strike and stuffing their ample funds under their mattresses if – gasp – capital gains rates and ordinary income rates are increased. The ultra-rich, including me, will forever pursue investment opportunities. …

“We need Congress, right now, to enact a minimum tax on high incomes. I would suggest 30 percent of taxable income between $1 million and $10 million, and 35 percent on amounts above that.”

So taxes, says Buffett, do not deter the ultra-rich “from pursuing investment opportunities.” Really?

The Weekly Standard’s Adam J. White writes about how tax considerations affect investment decisions by Buffett despite his assertion that tax considerations don’t much matter when it comes to investment decisions. White gives examples from Buffett’s biography “The Snowball,” written by Alice Schroeder:

“Early in his career, Buffett invested heavily – almost one-third of his early fund’s capital – in Sanborn Map, a company that mapped utility lines and such. … Buffett amassed more and more stock, and with control of the company finally in hand, he pressed the board of directors to split the company in two. …

“Finally, the board capitulated. But with victory finally at hand, Buffett nearly scuttled the deal because of … taxes. As Schroeder recounts, quoting Buffett, one director proposed that the company just cleanly break the company, despite the tax consequences – ‘let’s just swallow the tax,’ he suggested. To which Buffett replied (as he recounted to Schroeder): ‘And I said, “Wait a minute. Let’s – ‘Let’s’ is a contraction. It means ‘let us.’ But who is this us? If everyone around the table wants to do it per capita, that’s fine, but if you want to do it in a ratio of shares owned, and you get 10 shares’ worth of tax and I get 24,000 shares’ worth, forget it. …”‘

“Later in the book, (Schroeder) recounts how Buffett chose to structure his investments under Berkshire Hathaway’s corporate umbrella, rather than as part of his hedge fund’s general portfolio, precisely because of the tax advantages (emphasis added).”

White quotes Buffett’s 1986 letter to his investors, where Buffett warned about the consequences of the1986 tax reform act: “If Berkshire, for example, were to be liquidated – which it most certainly won’t be – shareholders would, under the new law, receive far less from the sales of our properties than they would have if the properties had been sold in the past, assuming identical prices in each sale. Though this outcome is theoretical in our case, the change in the law will very materially affect many companies. Therefore, it also affects our evaluations of prospective investments. … My impression is that this important change in the law has not yet been fully comprehended by either investors or managers (emphasis added).”

Taxes matter – to Buffett.

Harvard’s Economic Department chairman, Greg Mankiw, writes that “Mr. Buffett never mentions doing anything to eliminate the tax-avoidance strategies that he uses most aggressively. In particular:

“1. His company, Berkshire Hathaway, never pays a dividend but instead retains all earnings. So the return on this investment is entirely in the form of capital gains. By not paying dividends, he saves his investors (including himself) from having to immediately pay income tax on this income.

“2. Mr. Buffett is a long-term investor, so he rarely sells and realizes a capital gain. His unrealized capital gains are untaxed.

“3. He is giving away much of his wealth to charity. He gets a deduction at the full market value of the stock he donates, most of which is unrealized (and therefore untaxed) capital gains.

“4. When he dies, his heirs will get a stepped-up basis. The income tax will never collect any revenue from the substantial unrealized capital gains he has been accumulating.

“To be sure, there are pros and cons of changing the provisions of the tax code of which Mr. Buffett takes advantage. Tax policy always involves difficult tradeoffs. But it seems odd to me that whenever Mr. Buffett talks about taxing the rich more, the ‘loopholes’ that he uses never seem to enter into the conversation.”

Guess who else thinks Buffett should pay more in taxes: the IRS.

Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway has been fighting the IRS over the $1 billion in taxes the government claims it is owed, dating as far back as 2002. Last year, one of Berkshire Hathaway’s companies, NetJets, sued the IRS, demanding that the feds return $642.7 million in already paid taxes. And this year, the IRS sued NetJets, claiming it is owed $366.3 million in unpaid taxes.

Meanwhile, scientists at the National Institutes of Health are working feverishly to develop a cure, vaccine or treatment for this disease – that appears to afflict guilty/super-wealthy liberals – known in medical circles as “Buffettitis.” It’s early, and one risks being premature. But NIH just may have produced a workable solution: “Mr. Buffett, whip out your checkbook, and cut the U.S. Treasury a check. Given the state of the economy, let’s hope it doesn’t bounce.”

– IS THERE A CURE?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 02:38:46 PM »
Buffett understands the tax laws quite well, obviously.

Better than you.

Everyone needs to analyze everything the read and everything they hear.

This has been a pretty good idea since well, forever.

Are we going to chastise Buffett for doing what benefits Buffett the most?

Unlike Romney, who was chastised when he failed to fool the people into electing him to run the country for his small elite group of fatcats, Buffett is not running for office.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 04:14:12 PM »
Xo, I'm going to try and be as straightfoward & civil as I can.  I hope you can provide the same effort

What we have here is your attempting to rationalize Buffett's hypocrisy.  No one is argueing that he doesn't know how to play the market well, or that sirs knows tax laws better, or that one should be thoroughly educated when invested in the market, especially if heavily invested

The issue here is this notion that rich people don't really care about how high their taxes are, because they can afford it.  And that higher taxes wouldn't impact the pursuit of other investments.  He says that, however many, if not most, of his decisions and rhetoric when making decisions on his investments were squarely related to how it would impact him, from a tax standpoint.

So its bogus for him to claim that higher taxes won't really impair a person from pursuing investment opportunities, when he's a walking contrary

Do you have any clue as to what "the rich" pay in taxes vs what they take in?  Here's a clue, the top 1% are paying a staggering 40% of all taxes.  Do you know how much they take in, as a % of the country's wealth?  If you guessed 40%, you'd be wrong.  If you guessed half that, you'd still be wrong.  Contrary to popular erroneous opinion the rich pretty much only take in about 15-17% of the nation's income

Yet listening to folks like Buffett, you'd think every rich person had some secret offshore account where they paid next-to-nothing in taxes

So, you're absolutely right, the rich folks should know tax laws as well as they can, and for doing what they can to benefit them the most.  It's complete AMBE though to then claim how raising taxes doesn't influence decision making regarding what activities they would pursue, when its shown how he does the precise opposite
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 06:56:40 PM »
Quote
So, you're absolutely right, the rich folks should know tax laws as well as they can, and for doing what they can to benefit them the most.  It's complete AMBE though to then claim how raising taxes doesn't influence decision making regarding what activities they would pursue, when its shown how he does the precise opposite
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Well said.

I don't know why Warren Buffet has been saying the stuff he has been saying for the last few years, it is as if he doesn't want to be emulated.

Or could he be trying to create a legacy , saying what he thinks we want to hear.

I am just guessing.

sirs

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 07:50:41 PM »
Good guess, and thanks   8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 08:52:49 PM »
I was not justifying anything Buffett said. but he is correct that those who benefit the most should pay the most. I really don't know what Buffett actually pays, but I am sure that it is as little as possible. Everyone pretty much pays as little as possible, but most fatcats (like Romney) want to pay even LESS, so I would say that Buffett has them beat, rhetoric-wise, at least.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 08:59:05 PM »
I was not justifying anything Buffett said.

Of course you were....you were arguing points that were never really being questioned...the notion of doing whatever you can to benefit one's self


but he is correct that those who benefit the most should pay the most.

THEY ALREADY FRICKEN DO.  IIRC this country has the most progressive tax structure on the globe, and yet the rich still don't pay enough??  Not to mention, that's not his issue.....his issue is that raising taxes even more, is no big deal, when his actions and prior rhetoric alone directly debunks that claim

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 12:03:18 AM »
They should pay MORE.

They already have most of the wealth.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 01:18:52 AM »
They should pay MORE.

WHY?  You hate "the rich" that much?


They already have most of the wealth.

Even if it were true........SO??  What's it to you?  It's THEIR MONEY
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 01:48:42 AM »
They should pay MORE.

They already have most of the wealth.

If Buffett wants to pay more he should simply pick up a pen and write a check to the federal govt.

I don't see why simply because he is successful he should pay anymore of a percentage than you do. I'm not real big on this whole progressive tax idea nor the envy based justifications that go with it.

Plane

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 06:32:58 AM »
A park is public property , amintained by the city , we all own it.
Can wealth be considered as communal ?

If I ever manage to invent that killer app or that better mousetrap, or even just win the lotto, where do I get a debt to everyone ?

sirs

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 06:29:59 PM »
Buffett Boosts Own Morale with Hypocrisy

The government revised upward its initial reading of third quarter GDP from 2 percent to 2.7 percent in a move that was widely expected by economists.

And everyone said “yawn.”

That’s because the GDP growth was more government puffery. The increase was borrowed or freshly minted money. The government merely accelerated spending, filing one hole, while digging another- deeper- hole, in Obama’s latest 60-year-same-as-cash financing offer.   

At least that’s what the markets have felt apparently- reacting with shrug to another wave of “good” news coming out of the government about how great things are for the folks back home.

Home sales, or least contracts for home sales, have risen to a six-year high, unemployment claims fell again, although still high. Obama has promised that he’s gonna finally make the rich “pay”; and Warren Buffett tells us that those punitive measures will boost the morale of the middle class.

And the miasma of economic data and lavish discourse on it serves as further proof that whatever else may be happening, the economic numbers are disconnected from the everyday lives of ordinary persons as are the people who run Washington, London and Paris

Because you are kidding yourself if you think that anything coming out of any of the Western capitals- and the mouths of so-called Western billionaire capitalists- are about any “class” besides the “ruling” class.     

If Warren Buffett wants to boost the morale of middle class so badly, he should:

1) Pay his own taxes;
and
2) boost the paychecks of his middle class workers, not their taxes.


Or he could do us all a favor and just die, like he should have ten years ago.

It would have been fun to watch the government confiscate his wealth and do all the things Buffett advocates for. You know? Like NOT building the Keystone Pipeline. But you see, Buffett’s private railroad has the contract to haul the oil that the Keystone Pipeline would haul for a fraction of the price.       

And in dying the Carbuncle of Omaha would have been able to leave his considerable fortune to the government before he implemented his newest, spiffy tax-avoidance plan that makes sure little of his fortune goes for taxes.

No death tax for King Warren!

And since Buffett has already started transferring his wealth to private charity instead of the government, one might be tempted to ask why.

Maybe it’s because Buffett, as the icon billionaire of the technocrat class, doesn’t want follow the rules that he metes out for the rest of us. Man, what a congressman he would make for the left side of the aisle.   

But if the guy had any of the “fairness” fortitude that he preaches for everyone else, then as the number one cheerleader for taxing the rich he would be handing over his money to the benevolent government for which he pimps.   

“I was wired at birth to allocate capital,” Buffett told Fortune Magazine, “and was lucky enough to have people around me early on - my parents and teachers and [his wife] Susie  - who helped me to make the most of that.”

Yeah; and a cooperative, fawning government.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m tired of sanctimonious billionaires who lecture the rest us that we need to change the system that made them billionaires so that you and I can’t become billionaires- sanctimonious or otherwise.

Because, the Warren Buffett story was made possible by the very tax policies and investment-friendly environment advocated by supply-siders since the Reagan Revolution that Buffett now opposes.

Buffett has also benefited from the generous growth of the federal government, which he still supports. It’s no coincidence that one of Buffett’s most successful holdings remains Government Employees Insurance Company (GEICO), a company that was modeled on the stability and growth of the federal workforce.

So, of course Buffett feels that it’s his birthright to allocate capital for the rest of us.

“I told Susie I was going to be rich,” Buffett also confessed to Fortune. “That wasn't going to be because of any special virtues of mine or even because of hard work, but simply because I was born with the right skills in the right place at the right time.”

And after him, the deluge.

Thanks a lot, Warren.   
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 05:50:19 PM »
GEICO sells insurance to everyone. It has been 40 years or more since they concentrated on federal employees.

GEICO as a name brand was perhaps successful because many people trusted the Government MORE than other insurance companies. Now, perhaps they sell better because of their popular spokeslizard.

Buffett is correct about being better at investments than average. Plus, he was born with money. His father was an ultra rightwing quasi Bircher Republican.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 06:34:18 PM »
Strange how that name brand doesn't make the top 10 against many other companies that sells insurance to everyone, on many top 10 lists I looked at.  Perhaps because the others concentrate their effort to sell to everyone vs just on Federal Employees

In any case, the issue on whether Buffett is "better than average" in choosing what and how much to invest in, is moot, since that's not in debate, and no one is claiming otherwise.  that's just another effort to argue a point never made.  The debate is in the hypocrisy of Buffett to claim that raising taxes doesn't affect decision making & opportunistic investment by "the rich", when he's a walking contrary to that

And that fact that you claim he was "born with all that money" is ironically striking, in how you frequently use that as your whipping board, when it happens to be a rich Republican, yet hypocritically, you give him a pass. 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: BDS?.....check out Buffettitis
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 08:26:11 PM »
Really?

Is Buffett running for president, sirs?

I give him a pass only on his statement that (1) he thinks that fatcats like himself should pay more in taxes, and (2) that he won the "ovarian lottery" and that he is a far more successful investor than the average investor.

I also note that Buffett was never in the habit of practicing vulture capitalism and has not been noted for buying companies, taking them over, paying himself huge bonuses and selling off the peaces, throwing employees out of work. Nor does he have a lot of investments in the Cayman Islands.

Geico advertises in nearly every magazine that I subscribe to, as well as the Miami Herald. GEICO advertises on most TV networks.  I had my auto insurance with them for 20 years or so, until I found that now that I am retired and drive less, it saves me money to buy it from another carrier, without a cute spokeslizard. It is probably true that Federal employees have a lower accident rate than the average for the nation, just as it is true that TIAA-CREF has much lower rates because they specialize in university, private school and medical employees,who are apparently a better risk.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."