Author Topic: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military  (Read 1114 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« on: December 03, 2012, 12:53:35 AM »
Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military 

Ben Shapiro 2 Dec 2012,

Yesterday, Obama-approved Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood president Mohammed Morsi declared that he would have a referendum on December 15 to greenlight the newly rammed-through draft constitution that enshrines Shariah law in Egypt. Morsi has bought the support of the military via the new constitution, which prevents the military from having any civilian oversight, and allows the military to prosecute civilians.

Now Muslim Brotherhood protesters have shut down the Egyptian Supreme Court, forcing them to postpone their ruling on the legitimacy of the constitutional assembly that originally ratified the new constitution.

So much for the Arab Spring. The Muslim Brotherhood has now reached a compromise solution with the army that makes both of them unanswerable within the country. And the Obama administration remains silent.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/12/02/Morsi-reaches-deal-army-constitution-protesters


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 06:26:42 AM »
Shariah law is at best thirteenth century and hardly is appropriate for a country as cultured and diverse as Egypt. In 1950, Taiwan and Egypt were equal in personal income. Today, Taiwan is clearly first world and Egypt is mostly still backward. Morsi is not helping progress with this constitution.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 11:32:34 AM »
The consent of the governed might be achieved , Shria can be adapted to modern times, but this shortcut in the process bodes ill, it doesn't seem as if Morisi is concerned with legitamacy from the consent of the governed , perhaps not even concerned with human rights and self determination.
Oh well, Egypt , my heart breaks for you , can you have another election on schedule?

President Obama has powerfull leverage , but not fine controll, he is able to mildly express approval or   disapproval, and he is able to slam the Egyptian economy aganst the wall and run over the Egyptian standard of living with a dump truck. Doing somethig effective but not extreme is not easy, perhaps not possible.

  Whatever the Egyptian people end up with , our government will probly deal with.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 12:15:40 PM »
President Obama has powerfull leverage , but not fine controll, he is able to mildly express approval or   disapproval, and he is able to slam the Egyptian economy aganst the wall and run over the Egyptian standard of living with a dump truck.

Isn't the Egyptian economy heavily dependent on tourism?
I heard some IslamoNazis were calling for the destruction of the Pyramids.
If they destroy the Pyramids what's that gonna do for the tourist trade?
I suppose IslamoNazis oppose tourists because they bring "outside infidel influence".
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 12:30:13 PM »
President Obama has powerfull leverage , but not fine controll, he is able to mildly express approval or   disapproval, and he is able to slam the Egyptian economy aganst the wall and run over the Egyptian standard of living with a dump truck.

Isn't the Egyptian economy heavily dependent on tourism?
I heard some IslamoNazis were calling for the destruction of the Pyramids.
If they destroy the Pyramids what's that gonna do for the tourist trade?
I suppose IslamoNazis oppose tourists because they bring "outside infidel influence".

Yes.
They also think it sinfull to maintain an idol.
The Sphinx has been marred before , but it is made of hard stone , modern explosives may be required.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 01:40:12 PM »
The Muslim Brotherhood will not destroy any pyramids or the Sphinx, nor will they do anything to prevent tourists from visiting Egypt. They are not anything like the Talibans who blew up the Buddhas. Egyptians are very proud of their ancient heritage, unlike the Afghans, who did not consider themselves as related in any way to the people who built the Buddhas.

The US could withhold aid, and that would most likely cause a lot of turmoil that would be against the interests of the US and Israel. The US cannot really do much publicly to force the Muslim Brotherhood, but they can probably cause Morsi to moderate persecution of Christians, intellectuals and women. American tourists are certainly a boon to Egypt,but Egypt attracts tourists from many nations, including France, the US, Germany, Italy and even Israel.

Tourists who speak no Arabic are hardly much of an influence on most Egyptians. They deal mostly only with tourist guides, and people in the hospitality industry.

It is really, really stupid to call people "Islamonazis". Every bit as stupid as threatening to blow up the Sphinx and the pyramids.It only serves to piss off Muslims.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 03:31:03 PM »
It is really, really stupid to call people "Islamonazis".

No what is really, really stupid is "Militant Muslims dedicated to imposing their Islamic world view on others through the use of force and coercion".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Islamonazi


Islamonazi Propaganda
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 04:18:30 PM »
If the definition fits....what's the problem?  I'd prefer Islamofascists, but the point being its not stupid to call someone(s) pushing for a dictatorial/oppressive control of the populace by a central governing authority.  it's called, being accurate, though perhaps not politically correct for some, I suppose
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 06:32:25 PM »
Propaganda is only what you get , people get hardened to it and it grows more drastic. The propaganda is a symptom of the hatred first it causes more hatred only in the unthinking. Of course , there is little shortage of unthinking.

Anti Islamist propaganda is better placed and better thought out, but the intellectual effort must be expended to filter it no less.

Nobody deserves automated trust.

Plane

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 06:36:50 PM »
..............................They are not anything like the Talibans who blew up the Buddhas. Egyptians are very proud of their ancient heritage, unlike the Afghans, who did not consider themselves as related in any way to the people who built the Buddhas.

................................


  I would like to see what you are basing this idea on, I think it is an error.

Muslims in all kinds of countrys are aware that their ancestors included Pagans, Hindus , Buddists and Christians who were conquered.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 10:07:31 AM »
Muslims in all kinds of countrys are aware that their ancestors included Pagans, Hindus , Buddists and Christians who were conquered.

============================
I question this, particularly with regard to the Taliban in Afghanistan that blew up the Buddhas. Literacy is not a major deal with them,  Reading the Koran and memorizing it is about the pinnacle of their knowledge. Afghan history is certainly less well known than Egyptian history. It is also probable that they were NOT the descendents of the builders of those Buddhas, either. The Buddhas were built by monks that followed Asoka's empire, I think.

Afghanistan was crossed by invaders, it was not the goal of invaders. Egypt, on the other hand, was the goal of those who invaded, because of the richness of the Nile.

Morsi is not going to blow up the Sphinx. That will not happen. wait and see it not happen.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 09:21:12 PM »
  Muslims have their own history , and they are pretty well versed in it.
Lots of poor people are undereducated , but not much worse than our own, and where they think it matters they know a lot.

  Afghans know things about Alexander the great that the west did not , after the US leaves they will remember us too , just about the same way.

  Egyptians include some extremely well educated people , but for each professor of ancient history Egypt has an hundred guys that would sell you a Pharaohs skull for the price of breakfast.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 09:41:53 AM »
Muslim society has a huge number of illiterates and a few intellectuals. The latter are extremely knowledgeable about their history. The Taliban at the time that they blew up the Buddhas had driven out all the intellectuals that the Russians and the warlords that followed them out of the country. Blowing up the Buddhas was a way of telling the other factions that they were in charge and would not be influenced by any outside forces. Far more significant to the Afghan people was throwing all girls out of school, demanding that all women wear burkhas and men wear beards and punishing anyone who played music. They were a Muslim equivalent of Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge. Ignorami forcing ignorance on the entire country,so as to start from scratch.

This will never happen in Egypt. It is geographically too close to Europe. Egypt is not an isolated place. Afghanistan did not depend on those Buddhas to attract tourists. They attracted National geographic photographers.

No one is going to blow up the Sphinx or the Pyramids or any of the stuff in museums and at historic sites. There is NO CHANCE WHATEVER that this will happen.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 09:44:20 PM »
Quote
A talib or talibé (Arabic, ???? ??lib, "student", lit. "seeker"; pl. ???? ?ull?b) is a student, particularly a student of Islam, who may study in a madrasa or with a religious teacher.
 
The word "talib" in Arabic refers to any kind of student, whereas in English it has a stronger connotation towards religious students of Islam; the same is true of the word "madrasa" with respect to the English word "school".

   The origin of the Taliban , was as a band of scolars, they were focused on the Koran and fed up with the anarchy Afganistan was enduring , a good Islamic education is mostly memorising the Koran and learning to understand the important commentarys on it. This does not sound like worthwile persuit to the likes of me , but I have to acknoledge that it is a large feat of memory and understanding.

    Islam became the unifying force that led Afganistan out of anarchy, unfortunately the law became harsh enough to make people miss the anarchy.

    Destroying idols is a saintly act in Islam and Egypt has a lot of monuments to protect, I can imagine a small bunch of these guys finding a little explosive materiel and taking on an anchient monument , and feeling pretty good about it .

sirs

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Re: Morsi Reaches Islamist Dictator Deal With Egyptian Military
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 04:52:31 PM »
Islamology 101

Google “Islamist” and you’ll get more than 24 million hits. Google “jihadist” and you’ll get millions more. Yet I bet the average American could not tell you what it is that Islamists and jihadists believe. And those at the highest levels of the U.S. government refuse to do so.

Why? John Brennan, the top counterterrorism adviser in the White House, argues that it is “counterproductive” to describe America’s “enemy as ‘jihadists’ or ‘Islamists’ because jihad is a holy struggle, a legitimate tenet of Islam, meaning to purify oneself or one’s community, and there is nothing holy or legitimate or Islamic about murdering innocent men, women and children.” To describe terrorists using “religious terms,” he adds, would “play into the false perception” that the “murderers” waging unconventional war against the West are doing so in the name of a “holy cause.”

I get it. I understand why it would be useful to convince as many of the world’s more than a billion Muslims as possible that Americans are only attempting to defend themselves against “violent extremists.” By now, however, it should be obvious that this spin — one can hardly call it analysis — has spun out. The unpleasant fact is that there is an ideology called Islamism and, as Yale professor Charles Hill recently noted, it “has been on the rise for generations.”

So we need to understand it. We need to understand how Islamism has unfolded from Islam, and how it differs from traditional Islam as practiced in places as far-flung and diverse as Kuala Lumpur, Erbil, and Timbuktu. This is what Bassam Tibi attempts in his most recent book, published this year, Islamism and Islam. It has received nowhere near the attention it deserves.

A Koret Foundation Senior Fellow at Stanford University, Tibi describes himself as an “Arab-Muslim pro-democracy theorist and practitioner.” Raised in Damascus, he has “studied Islam and its civilization for four decades, working in the Middle East, South and Southeast Asia, and Africa.” His research has led him to this simple and stark conclusion: “Islamism is a totalitarian ideology.” And just as there cannot be “democratic totalitarianism,” so there cannot be “democratic Islamism.”

Brennan and other American and European officials are wrong, Tibi says, to fear that “fighting Islamism is tantamount to declaring all of Islam a violent enemy.” As for the Obama administration’s insistence that “the enemy is specifically, and only, al-Qaeda,” that, Tibi writes, “is far too reductive.”

Tibi also faults Noah Feldman, the young scholar who advised the Bush administration, and who insisted, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, that sharia, Islamic law, can be viewed as “Islamic constitutionalism.” Feldman failed to grasp the significance of the “Islamist claim to supremacy (siyadat al-Islam),” the conviction that Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists are inferior and that their inferiority should be reflected under the law and by government institutions.

Tibi makes this important distinction: All jihadists are Islamists, but not all Islamists are jihadists. In other words, not all Islamists are committed to violence, including terrorism, as the preferred means to achieve their goals. He asks: “Can we trust Islamists who forgo violence to participate in good faith within a pluralistic, democratic system?” He answers: “I believe we cannot.”

Chief among Islamist goals, Tibi writes, is al-hall al Islami, “the Islamic solution, a kind of magic answer for all of the problems — global and local, socio-economic or value-related — in the crisis-ridden world of Islam.” Islamists ignore the fact that such governance has been implemented, for example, in Iran for over more than 30 years, in Afghanistan under the Taliban, in Gaza under Hamas, and in Sudan. It has never delivered development, freedom, human rights, or democracy. As for Turkey, Tibi sees it as “not yet an Islamist state” but heading in that direction.

Tibi makes some arguments with which I’d quarrel. For example, he views Saudi religious/political doctrines as a “variety of Salafism (orthodox, traditional Islam) not Islamism.” I would counter that Salafism is a variant of Islamism, albeit one based not on the writings of Hassan al-Banna, who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928, but on nostalgia for the glory days of the seventh century.

Nevertheless, the debate Tibi is attempting to initiate is necessary — and long overdue. During the Cold War there was a field of study known as Sovietology. It was taught in our most elite universities with strong U.S. government support.

Why isn’t Islamology — not Islamic theology, or “Muslim-Christian understanding,” or “Islamic thought” — a discipline today? For one, Tibi observes, because to “protect themselves against criticism, Islamists have invented the formula of ‘Islamophobia’ to defame their critics.” (How did Stalin not come up with Sovietophobia or Russophobia?) And of course if such slander fails to intimidate, there are other ways to shut people up: Tibi has “survived attempts on my life by jihadists.”

A second reason for the absence of Islamology: The U.S. government cannot back the study of an ideology it stubbornly insists does not exist. Finally, those who do fund anything to do with Islam on campus — for example, the Gulf petro-princes who have given tens of millions of dollars to Georgetown and Harvard — have a different agenda, one that does not include free and serious inquiry.

We ignore what they are doing — and what Tibi is telling us — at great peril
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle