"Great Iraqi Victory" a massacre + a cover-up?

[sirs]

<<I rest my case [on me, Michael Tee, saying that he wants the U.S to lose, in every way, shape, and form] ..

I have to say, that's a pretty weak reed on which to rest ANY case. 

Not at all.  You're beyond transparent, and your arrogant opinion simply reinforces it.  Bush is Hitler, America is evil, U.S. military are raping mercenaries, yada, yada, yada, & everything that is done to them, by anyone, be it an IED, Homicide bomber, RPG, even Heavily armed military pilgrims heading to mecca under the cover of darkness, is to be applauded, supported, and encourged.  Any and everything that Bush, U.S. military, or the puppet Iraqi security says, is to be completely unbelieved, no ifs, ands or buts.

Defeating "evil" requires that added level of justification and rationalization. 

Any normal, decent, law-abiding, straight-thinking person would want the U.S. to lose this war.  

LOL......priceless

[Michael Tee]

<<Not at all.  You're beyond transparent, and your arrogant opinion simply reinforces it. >>

I'm pleased that I am transparent.  If I were gonna rob somebody and steal the most priceless thing he owns, I sure as bitchin hell would NOT tell the world I was doing it to bring him peace and freedom.  I can see why you think transparent is bad, though, considering the scumbags you admire so much.

However, since I AM so transparent, I hope you will understand how puzzled I am that anyone could so consistently misrepresent my views, as you have.

<< Bush is Hitler>>

What a crock.  You know God-damn well that I would never compare Bush to Hitler - - it's like comparing an evil dwarf to Satan himself, and in other posts, you've represented my views on that topic much more accurately.  You KNOW that I think that Bush is inferior to Hitler in every possible way that one man can be inferior to another, and yet you continually misrepresent my view as "Bush=Hitler."  You know that is bullshit even as you type it.

<< America is evil>>

That's more bullshit.  You know God-damn well that I don't think there is anything evil in Jane Fonda or George Soros or Dennis Kucinich or the late Rosa Parks or any of millions of good, decent, honourable Americans.  America is led by evil men and women with a lot of support from a lot of evil Americans, but I never implied the entire country was evil.  The good Americans as we speak are fighting hard to get control of the country back from its evil side.

<< U.S. military are raping mercenaries>>

I never said they were all mercenaries.  Some of them are obviously members of the U.S. military.

<< yada, yada, yada>>

More bullshit.  I never said yada yada yada.  I never even said yada.

<< & everything that is done to them, by anyone, be it an IED, Homicide bomber, RPG, even Heavily armed military pilgrims heading to mecca under the cover of darkness, is to be applauded, supported, and encourged. >>

What do you think, invading armies who rape, murder and torture and come to steal a country's natural wealth should be showered with rose petals and given the keys to the capital city?

<< Any and everything that Bush, U.S. military, or the puppet Iraqi security says, is to be completely unbelieved, no ifs, ands or buts.>>

I think there's a difference between (A) pointing out the numerous holes in their bullshit stories and reminding people that all of them (Bush, the U.S. military and the puppet Iraqi government) have lied and covered up on numerous occasions and will in all likelihood continue to do so in the future and (B) taking the position that anything and everything they say is a lie.  Obviously they must be telling the truth some of the time, when the truth isn't really against their own agenda or even sometimes purely by accident.


<<Defeating "evil" requires that added level of justification and rationalization.  >>

Defeating evil requires a lot of courage and straight shooting.  Or straight suicide bombing.  Or whatever they gotta do to defeat it and drive its ass out of their country.

[sirs]

<<Not at all.  You're beyond transparent, and your arrogant opinion simply reinforces it. >>

I'm pleased that I am transparent.  If I were gonna rob somebody and steal the most priceless thing he owns, I sure as bitchin hell would NOT tell the world I was doing it to bring him peace and freedom.  I can see why you think transparent is bad, though, considering the scumbags you admire so much.

Funny how I could apply the same asanine logic to yourself.  Funny how that works

However, since I AM so transparent, I hope you will understand how puzzled I am that anyone could so consistently misrepresent my views, as you have.
<< Bush is Hitler>>

You KNOW that I think that Bush is inferior to Hitler in every possible way that one man can be inferior to another, and yet you continually misrepresent my view as "Bush=Hitler."  You know that is bullshit even as you type it.

Oh that's right, Bush is a moronic version of Hitler.  Yea, that's more appropriate   

<< America is evil>>

That's more bullshit.  You know God-damn well that I don't think there is anything evil in Jane Fonda or George Soros or Dennis Kucinich or the late Rosa Parks or any of millions of good, decent, honourable Americans.  

Oh yea, those Americans who think that America is evil or racist or fascist, and like minds are to be applauded.  Fonda?  Soros?  Again, priceless  And FYI, I wasn't referencing individuals, I was referencing America

<< U.S. military are raping mercenaries>>

I never said they were all mercenaries.  Some of them are obviously members of the U.S. military.

Oh, that changes my assessment of your position, how again?

What do you think, invading armies who rape, murder and torture and come to steal a country's natural wealth should be showered with rose petals and given the keys to the capital city?

That's only if we were to buy into your cock and bull garbage of what is is.  Thankfully, rationally minded people know better

<<Defeating "evil" requires that added level of justification and rationalization.  >>

America is led by evil men and women with a lot of support from a lot of evil Americans, but I never implied the entire country was evil.  The good Americans as we speak are fighting hard to get control of the country back from its evil side....Defeating evil requires a lot of courage and straight shooting.  Or straight suicide bombing.  Or whatever they gotta do to defeat it and drive its ass out of their country.

Again, I rest my case.  You've been very helpful, Tee

[BT]

didn't vouch for either of the two articles BT - - just pointed out that even if they both couldn't be correct, either one of them made more sense than the administration bullshit that portrayed the victims of the massacre as foiled participants in some bizarre plot by minority Shina to assassinate the entire mainstream Shi'ite religious leadership.

Be honest Mikey,

By calling it a massacre, you not only vouch for the story but obviously agree with it. Meanwhile Reuters and AP no big friends of the administration and both known to doctor facts to embarrass same have the opposite take on it.

But look on the bright side . You now have 2-300 martyr victims to hold up as role models in their heroic opposition to the oppressors.

[Michael Tee]

<<Be honest Mikey,

<<By calling it a massacre, you not only vouch for the story but obviously agree with it. Meanwhile Reuters and AP no big friends of the administration and both known to doctor facts to embarrass same have the opposite take on it. >>

A massacre is a mass killing, BT.  Of people who basically are overwhelmed by opposing force.  Doesn't have anything to do with the victims being saints or sinners.   In the first Gulf War, Barry McCafferty's forces opened fire on retreating Iraqi columns pulling out of the battle area as fast as they could.  That also was a massacre.  Even though the victims were soldiers on active duty.  Had nothing to do with the "guilt" or "innocence" of the victims, only the relative power of the two sides and the final body count.

[Michael Tee]

<<Funny how I could apply the same asanine logic to yourself.>>

Well, actually, I don't see how you can.  But go ahead and try it if you think you can.

<<Oh that's right, Bush is a moronic version of Hitler.>>

Moronic, cowardly, tongue-tied, illiterate and ignorant. 

<<Yea, that's more appropriate >>

More accurate too, if you're quoting me.   

<<Oh yea, those Americans who think that America is evil or racist or fascist, and like minds are to be applauded.  Fonda?  Soros?  Again, priceless>>

I didn't ask you to AGREE with me, only to stop misrepresenting what I said.  Whatever YOU think of Americans like Fonda and Soros and Rosa Parks, I think they're fantastic human beings.    Nothing evil about them.  So just stop your lying bullshit claiming that I am calling America evil.  It's only SOME Americans that I call evil and you know that God-damn well.

<<And FYI, I wasn't referencing individuals, I was referencing America>>

Asinine referencing then.  How can a COUNTRY be evil?  The country is made up of individuals.  There is no evidence at all that a majority of American individuals support Bush in his evil.  Half of those eligible to vote don't even bother, and of the rest, Bush enjoys the support of very slim majorities, in fact in 2000 he owed his "victory" to a corrupt Supreme Court and an undemocratic, rigged electoral system, NOT to the American people.

<<Oh, that changes my assessment of your position, how again?>>

That was a joke, moron.

<<That's only if we were to buy into your cock and bull garbage of what is is. >>

I've already bought into it.  So has everybody else whose opinion is worth anything.

<< Thankfully, rationally minded people know better>>

"Rationally minded people" like YOU?  ROTFLMFAO

<<Again, I rest my case.  You've been very helpful, Tee>>

Resting your case on a clear, logical and concise summary of its diametric opposite indicates either that you have no case at all to rest or that you are seriously out to lunch to an almost certifiable degree.  But that's not MY problem.

[BT]

Doesn't have anything to do with the victims being saints or sinners.

Sure it does. You portray them as innocent saints.

You can read the whole article at http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2201103.ece but basically it seems that some trigger-happy guards at the check-point killed a carload of cult leaders and their families, prompting the rest of the cult to open fire, the panicked "Iraqi Army" troops to call in U.S. air support and the usual indiscriminate massacre to follow.  The victims' "plot" to seize the mosques and assassinate al Sistani and the entire Shi'ite leadership was an afterthought, a little bit of PR that was either dreamed up on the spot by the puppets themselves or, IMHO, more likely a cute little spin developed by the world's greatest bullshit and cover-up artists, the U.S. Army.

[sirs]

yada...rant...blather

You already made my point Tee.  You have concluded how evil Bush is, how America is run by evil men, making it an evil place, and defended by evil soldiers, who go out in mass purposely doing evil things.  Everything you opine on is based on that template, thus anything said or facts to the contrary are to be completely ignored if not demagogued.  Anything said, regardless of how outrageous it is, that happens to mimic your mindset is to be applauded.   

Anything bad that happens to American soldiers, even beheadings I bet, is justified by you.  Anything that happens to America, such as any further terrorist attacks are to be rationalized as a good thing.  Anything to take down the current evil incarnate, the United States of America, is perfectly "reasonable". 

Reasonable to the pathological perhaps

[Michael Tee]

<<You already made my point Tee.  You have concluded how evil Bush is>>

So your point was how I had pegged Bush for the lying war-mongering torturing bastard that he is?  Good point, I think.  What are we arguing about then if that's your point too?

<< . . . . how America it's run by evil men . . . >>

Yup.  And that bitch Condi.

<< . . .  making it an evil place. . . >>

Now, now.  There is absolutely nothing evil about New York, it's a truly wonderful place full of wonderful decent honest people who absolutely loathe and despise Bush, and there are plenty of similarly wonderful places in America.  Don't put words in my mouth, sirs.  America is not an evil place, but Bush and his supporters are trying their damndest to turn it into one.

<< . . .  and defended by evil soldiers . . . >>

DEFENDED by evil soldiers?  You really ARE delusional if you think that their vicious wars of aggression killing millions of innocent Third World peasants who pose no threat whatsoever are defensive operations?  You're a fucking lunatic.

 <<who go out in mass purposely doing evil things. >>

No, the torture, murder and rape are done in their sleep.  They don't even know they did it.  What the fuck is wrong with you?

<< Everything you opine on is based on that template, thus anything said or facts to the contrary are to be completely ignored if not demagogued.  Anything said, regardless of how outrageous it is, that happens to mimic your mindset is to be applauded.   >>

And you, if you had lived in Nazi Germany, would have closed your eyes to every fucking atrocity and sleep-walked through the whole Nazi era, knowing nothing, wanting to know nothing and denying everything.  "Facts to the contrary."  Fucking bullshit, there ARE no facts to the contrary.  There are hundreds of thousands dead, MILLIONS if you want to throw in Viet Nam, thousands tortured to death, thousands more locked away, imprisoned without trial or even charges - - and you, in your asinine persistence, go on with the outrageous LIE that Bush and the rest of them are only bringing freedom and democracy to the rest of the world.  You're insane.

<<Anything that bad happens to American soldiers, even beheadings I bet, is justified. >>

Invade a country, kill hundreds of thousands of its people, kidnap them, torture them, murder them and expect roses and kisses?    I DON'T THINK SO.

<< Anything that happens to America, such as any further terrorist attacks are to be rationalized as a good thing. >>

Not a good thing but an inevitable thing.  And sad because it's the ordinary, good people of New York who have to pay for the crimes of Bush and his ilk.

<< Anything to take down the current evil incarnate, the United States of America, is perfectly "reasonable".  >>

Anything to end fascism, racism and militarism in America is good for America, good for humanity and good for the world.  Hopefully, the American people have seen the truth of this and will start electing good, decent men and women instead of criminal fascists and the cycle of violence which Bush & Co. have pumped to its highest level ever will begin to subside.

Reasonable to the pathological perhaps

[sirs]

<<snip>>

Translated: Bush is evil, America is run by evil men & Condi, making it an evil place, that sends out evil soldiers in mass, to purposely do evil things. 

Everything you opine then is based on that template, thus anything said or facts to the contrary are to be completely ignored if not demagogued.  Anything said, regardless of how outrageous it is, that happens to mimic your mindset is to be applauded.  Objectivity need not apply

Anything bad that happens to American soldiers, even beheadings apparently, is justified by you.  Anything that happens to America, such as any further terrorist attacks are to be rationalized as inevitable, if not a good thing.  Anything to take down what you have opined as the current evil incarnate, that being the United States of America, is perfectly "reasonable".

Pathologic definately, but reasonably so?      I wonder if there's such a thing as reasonably or rationally pathologic?     

[Michael Tee]

<<Everything you opine then is based on that template, thus anything said or facts to the contrary are to be completely ignored if not demagogued.  Anything said, regardless of how outrageous it is, that happens to mimic your mindset is to be applauded.  Objectivity need not apply>>

I don't ignore everything that's contrary to my opinion, I usually go out of my way to demonstrate how ludicrous and absurd it is.  And of course I approve of views similar to mine, most people do - - I've lost count of the number of times you yourself have posted entire articles seemingly authored by raving lunatics just because their idiocies matched yours.  But I don't know what you mean by "regardless of how outrageous" - - outrageous is a pretty subjective thing, obviously.  Ninety per cent at least of what outrages me seems to be something you and your fellow "conservatives" seem to find perfectly unexceptionable.  And vice versa.  But apart from what you might consider outrageous, I try to be as objective as I can in the circumstances - - which is why, for example, I would never compare Bush to Hitler - - objectively speaking, he's more like a minor Nazi war criminal than a major one.

<<Anything bad that happens to American soldiers, even beheadings apparently, is justified by you. >>

Aw get real.  Whatever happens to them in Iraq, they've got coming.  There isn't enough pain in the world to pay them back for the pain they've already inflicted there and the natives are justified in anything they can do in retaliation.  At the end of the day most of those bastards will come home to boast over their beers for the rest of their lives of their tortures, rapes and murders as long as there is anyone willing to listen to them.

<<Anything that happens to America, such as any further terrorist attacks are to be rationalized as inevitable, if not a good thing.  >>

Inevitable but sad, since (as in the Twin Towers) the victims are innocent or good Americans being made to pay for the sins of evil Americans.

<<Anything to take down what you have opined as the current evil incarnate, that being the United States of America, is perfectly "reasonable">>

The best thing that could happen to them would be a sound military thrashing, as in Viet Nam, which teaches them a lesson that will keep them out of more hot water for at least a few years.  That means the world will be spared the scourge of their aggression for at least that much time.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The best thing that could happen to them would be a sound military thrashing, as in Viet Nam, which teaches them a lesson that will keep them out of more hot water for at least a few years.  That means the world will be spared the scourge of their aggression for at least that much time.

=========================================================================
Alas, this does not work. Vietnam was as sound a thrashing as and country ever had, and yet, those who refused to support it with their lives (Juniorbush, Cheney and all those asshole chickenhawks) still created another worse Vietnam 40 years later.

How could the people be so STOOPID as to elect a lying piece of sh*t like Juniorbush and the personification of the Military Industrial Complex himself that was Dick Cheney? 

Is it impossible to teach them anything?   

[Michael Tee]

<<You portray them as innocent saints. >>

I think they were NOT plotting to kill the mainstream Shi'ite leadership and I think that they were probably not guerrillas.  The U.S. official position has too many holes in it - - the numerous and widely variant body counts, the lop-sided death toll, the failure to melt away, etc.  Both the Cockburn and the Cole versions seem to be closer to the truth.

I did not portray them as innocent saints.  Everybody gunned down by the puppet forces doesn't have to be an innocent saint, but they don't have to be grandiose plotters either.  They don't even have to be anti-"government" militants.

I don't think there should be any ambiguity in what I posted, but just to clarify it anyway, I think the likeliest scenario now is that the puppet forces opened fire on some non-threatening folks (of whose saintliness I have no idea) which provoked a lot of their well-armed companions to fire back.  The cause of the shoot-out was panic on the part of the puppet guards, and the puppet force was so cowardly and /or inept that U.S. airpower had to be called in, resulting in a massacre (in the most value-neutral sense of the word) of the armed "pilgrims" (in quotes because we don't know if they were in fact pilgrims.)

What appears to be reasonably clear is that the victims of the massacre, whether "innocent saints" or not, were NOT a guerrilla force about to assassinate the entire mainstream Shi'ite leadership as now claimed by the Americans and their puppets. So this is NOT a victory over "terrorism" but just one more in a long series of senseless killings set in motion by Bush and his brillilant idea to invade Iraq.

[Michael Tee]

<<Alas, this does not work. Vietnam was as sound a thrashing as and country ever had, and yet, those who refused to support it with their lives (Juniorbush, Cheney and all those asshole chickenhawks) still created another worse Vietnam 40 years later.>>

Yeah but they stayed outta trouble for a long time after Nam.

<<How could the people be so STOOPID as to elect a lying piece of sh*t like Juniorbush and the personification of the Military Industrial Complex himself that was Dick Cheney? >>

Good question.  I'd say (a) near-total failure of the educational system and (b) a well-organized and all-pervasive MSM campaign of militarism and fascism, glorifying war and violence, equating them with sexual conquests and virtual worship of the armed forces and their so-called achievements, in many cases with completely falsified versions of history to accompany them.

<<Is it impossible to teach them anything? >>

No, but it can't be done in just one or two thrashings.  And perhaps the thrashings may have to become much more severe.  Sadly, many Americans already know what they all need to learn, but they are still outmanoeuvered by the morons amongst them.  (BT: So I guess they aren't such morons then, are they?)  They're morons because they don't foresee the end results of their own cunning and guile.  Of their own lies.

[sirs]

<<Everything you opine then is based on that template, thus anything said or facts to the contrary are to be completely ignored if not demagogued.  Anything said, regardless of how outrageous it is, that happens to mimic your mindset is to be applauded.  Objectivity need not apply>>

I don't ignore everything that's contrary to my opinion...

Yes, you do, when you're not demagoguing it with more opinion.  ESPECIALLY when its anything related to Bush and the War in Iraq

I usually go out of my way to demonstrate how ludicrous and absurd it is.  

In other words, "don't bother me with facts and logic contrary to my already made up mind of how evil Bush and the U.S. military are.  My opinion is fact, & yours is ludicrous & absurd".  Yea, we got that already.  That's the point I've been making, that you keep reinforcing, thank you very much.