Author Topic: The Line  (Read 2800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
The Line
« on: February 03, 2007, 03:37:06 PM »

Atlantic Unbound | February 2, 2007
 
Fallows@Large | by James Fallows
 
Where Congress Can Draw the Line


No war with Iran

.....

D eciding what to do next about Iraq is hard — on the merits, and in the politics. It’s hard on the merits because whatever comes next, from “surge” to “get out now” and everything in between, will involve suffering, misery, and dishonor. It’s just a question of by whom and for how long. On a balance-of-misery basis, my own view changed last year from “we can’t afford to leave” to “we can’t afford to stay.” And the whole issue is hard in its politics because even Democrats too young to remember Vietnam know that future Karl Roves will dog them for decades with accusations of “cut-and-run” and “betraying” troops unless they can get Republicans to stand with them on limiting funding and forcing the policy to change.

By comparison, Iran is easy: on the merits, in the politics. War with Iran would be a catastrophe that would make us look back fondly on the minor inconvenience of being bogged down in Iraq. While the Congress flounders about what, exactly, it can do about Iraq, it can do something useful, while it still matters, in making clear that it will authorize no money and provide no endorsement for military action against Iran.

Why? Think of the three ways war between the United States and Iran might start.
Advertisement

One is the surprise, “surgical” air operation against Iranian nuclear facilities to take them out before they cause too much trouble. This option is beloved of the kind of tough-guy op-ed writers who earlier cheered on a war with Iraq. It is not at all beloved within the U.S. military. That is because military officials know what would happen roughly five minutes after the attacks were over: a short-term effort to make things really difficult for Americans in Iraq (where Iran obviously has huge leverage), in world energy markets, and everywhere else — plus a long-term, renewed effort to build Iran’s own bomb. More than two years ago, this exercise in the Atlantic indicated that it was simply too late for the United States (much less Israel) to deny Iran a nuclear option via surprise attack. Since then — well, it’s even later.

The second option would be land war. Please. Iran is nearly four times as large and has nearly three times as many people as Iraq. With what army will the U.S. attack and occupy such a state?

Also see:

JamesFallows.com
James Fallows's Web site, with regularly updated dispatches, and information about his writings and appearances.

And the third would be some kind of drift into war, Cuban Missile Crisis-style. Threats and bombast on both sides, hair-trigger preparations, each side hurrying to strike because it thinks it’s too dangerous to wait for the other side to strike first. (Come to think of it, wasn’t this the essence of the “National Security Strategy” the Bush administration laid out in 2002, with its concept of “preventive” war?) For the likely consequences, see Option One.

Would it be better if Iran did not acquire nuclear weapons? Of course. But there are certain important goals that cannot realistically be attained by war. This is one of them. Analogy: it would be far better if North Korea did not build a full nuclear arsenal. The United States should do all it can to keep that from happening — but no sane person thinks that attacking North Korea, and provoking an instant assault on Seoul and neighboring cities, is the way to go.

If we could trust the Administration’s ability to judge America’s rational self-interest, there would be no need to constrain its threatening gestures toward Iran. Everyone would understand that this was part of the negotiation process; no one would worry that the Administration would finally take a step as self-destructive as beginning or inviting a war.

But no one can any longer trust the Administration to recognize and defend America’s rational self-interest — not when the President says he will carry out a policy even if opposed by everyone except his wife and dog, not when the Vice President refuses to concede any mistake or misjudgment in the handling of Iraq. According to the constitutional chain of command, those two men literally have the power to order a strike that would be disastrous for their nation. The Congress has no official way to prevent them from doing so — it is interesting, and alarming, to think that in practice the safety valve might be the professional military, trained to revere the chain of command but faced with what its members would recognize as ruinous instructions.

What the Congress can do is draw the line. It can say that war with Iran is anathema to the interests of the United States and contrary to the will of its elected representatives. And it should do that now.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200702u/congress-iraq
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: The Line
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 04:04:48 PM »
Quote
What the Congress can do is draw the line. It can say that war with Iran is anathema to the interests of the United States and contrary to the will of its elected representatives. And it should do that now.

Yes Congress should go on the record saying that a nuclear Iran is not a threat to US interests.

While they are at it perhaps a resolution applauding Iranian developed and distributed IED's used currently in the Iraq theater.


Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 04:19:33 PM »
<<Yes Congress should go on the record saying that a nuclear Iran is not a threat to US interests. >>

I wasn't aware that was what Fallows suggested, nor does it necessarily flow from his idea.  All in all, I'd say Fallows had a good idea and you had a bad one.

Unfortunately, Congress seems to be divided between war-mongering idiots who will endorse any senseless act of violence that Bush may be planning and those who probably know better but lack the balls to say so or to do anything about it.

Consider this:  if they had any balls at all, they would jealously hold onto their Constitutional war-making powers and let Bush know in no ambiguous terms that any attempt to usurp them would trigger an instant impeachment.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: The Line
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 04:33:44 PM »
Quote
I wasn't aware that was what Fallows suggested, nor does it necessarily flow from his idea.  All in all, I'd say Fallows had a good idea and you had a bad one.

Thanks for the critique. Glad that is settled. You being alway right and all.


However .............


The two most logical easons we would go to war with Iran would center around those two items.

And i think Ciongress should have the political courage to go on record asaying neither of those potential causes bother them one bit.


Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2007, 04:43:21 PM »
<<And i think Ciongress should have the political courage to go on record asaying neither of those potential causes bother them one bit. >>

What is the connection between being a bit bothered by a threat and going to war agaisnt the supposed source of the threat?  I'd say that Congress should be a lot more "bothered" by the chance of Bush embroiling the country in another senseless war (something which has already come to pass once) than they are about the chance of Iran actually attacking them, which (a) has never happened yet and (b) is extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely to ever happen and (c) would be dealt with appropriately if it ever did happen anyway.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: The Line
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 04:47:45 PM »
If Congress should go on record as ruling out war with iraq they should go on record ruling out all contingencies that could lead to said war.

otherwise it is a toothless resolution. And i don't think congress is allowed more than one of those each session.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 04:54:44 PM »
Some would argue that just ruling out war with Iran is itself a toothless resolution.  I don't agree, but if it is, I don't think further commentary on the contingencies would make it any less toothless.

It's an academic discussion anyway because we're talking about a resolution that Congress would never have the balls to pass.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: The Line
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 05:32:30 PM »
Academically speaking if it is a resolution worth passing, and you seem to think it is, should not congress be held accountable for their lack of fortitude?

SHould we send them copies of Brass's Oz's Lion ?

http://www.manyhandsfilms.com/e107_plugins/media/media.php?view.2
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 05:48:29 PM by BT »

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 05:49:59 PM »
<<And i think Ciongress should have the political courage to go on record asaying neither of those potential causes bother them one bit. >>

What is the connection between being a bit bothered by a threat and going to war agaisnt the supposed source of the threat?  I'd say that Congress should be a lot more "bothered" by the chance of Bush embroiling the country in another senseless war (something which has already come to pass once) than they are about the chance of Iran actually attacking them, which (a) has never happened yet and (b) is extremely, extremely, extremely unlikely to ever happen and (c) would be dealt with appropriately if it ever did happen anyway.


Iran is the sponsor of Hezbollah , which held the Boone and Crocket record for bagging Americans untill 9-11.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2007, 12:22:59 AM »
Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett bagged Americans?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2007, 02:46:20 AM »

domer

  • Guest
Re: The Line
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2007, 03:05:27 AM »
It would be extremely stupid geopolitics to rule out war with Iran; it would be even stupider to engage in one.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2007, 03:23:23 AM »
It would be extremely stupid geopolitics to rule out war with Iran; it would be even stupider to engage in one.


I will grant you both of those points.

Should the threat seem realistic even if it is not intend really?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Line
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2007, 12:24:13 PM »
<<http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_overview.asp?area=bgRecords


<<They keep the records.>>

Aowww, you got me on that one.