Author Topic: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity  (Read 4702 times)

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_JS

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2007, 05:00:56 PM »
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By the way, this is the Catholic Church at its best: noble, caring, resolute. It is the same in its social teachings. I have just acquired a volume devoted to just that topic; I look forward to some enlightening and warming reading. That is not to say that the Church is not institutionally hidebound, which it is in spades. But when it shines, Lord, it illuminates.

Very well put Domer.

I thought that all of the Archbishop's points were very wise, but I was especially appreciative of his fifth point, which included testimony from a former Palestinian militant who now belongs to:

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Combatants for Peace, a group of former Palestinian militants and former Israeli soldiers who have teamed up to urge reconciliation

I think there is a lot of hope there. Reconciliation can overcome very great disparity. I think we can prevail over the mentality of kill or be killed, which is much more in tune with the teachings of Christ.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

domer

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2007, 05:19:55 PM »
I totally agree, JS. I've also just acquired a celebrated title by an Israeli professor named, roughly, "Beyond Conflict Resolution: The Challenge of Reconciliation." While I don't yet know its contents, I have every reason to believe it is an outstanding addition to this discussion -- even as it points the way to the most difficult of human exercises: true reconciliation not just the ceasing of hostilities, which is what "conflict resolution" has meant in the Middle East. It is very heartening to see the papal nuncio and (presumably) this leading Israeli thinker dovetail so compatibly in their basic orientations.

Lanya

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2007, 07:54:12 PM »
By the way, this is the Catholic Church at its best: noble, caring, resolute. It is the same in its social teachings. I have just acquired a volume devoted to just that topic; I look forward to some enlightening and warming reading. That is not to say that the Church is not institutionally hidebound, which it is in spades. But when it shines, Lord, it illuminates.

What is the book called?
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2007, 11:36:59 PM »
Iraq and Saddam area a good example , was it really possibe to take Saddams word on anything?

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Well, yes.
Saddam said he had no WMD's, and the fact was that he didn't.

Juniorbush said he did, and Juniorbush was WRONG.

Thousands have died because the real liar was not identified.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2007, 12:38:27 AM »
Iraq and Saddam area a good example , was it really possibe to take Saddams word on anything?

===============================================================
Well, yes.
Saddam said he had no WMD's, and the fact was that he didn't.

Juniorbush said he did, and Juniorbush was WRONG.

Thousands have died because the real liar was not identified.


You mean that millions could still be liveing under the thumb of Saddam if he had of hd a reutation for honesty , or some means of proveing his word?

domer

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2007, 01:21:32 AM »
Lanya, the book I was referring to is "Catholic Social Thought: The Documentary Heritage," O'Brien & Shannon, eds., Orbis Books (1992), which consists of a series of encyclicals and other official Church documents. I got it from Amazon.com.

Michael Tee

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2007, 02:46:17 PM »
<<You mean that millions could still be liveing under the thumb of Saddam if he had of hd a reutation for honesty , or some means of proveing his word?>>

I'm having a little trouble following your thought processes here, plane.  You asked a fairly straightforward question, whether it "was really possible" to take Saddam's word on anything.  You got a fairly straightforward answer, a simple yes, with a simple example drawn from real life:  on the issue of Iraqi WMD, it was "really possible" to have taken Saddam's word that he did not, and anyone who took Bush's word, that he (Saddam) did have WMD, would have been sadly deceived.

Your question was answered in a way that requires no further interpretation.  The answer was clear and unambiguous, although not, I gather, what you expected it would have been.  Not only does it prove that Saddam's word COULD have been believed, it proves that Bush's word CAN'T be believed.  Not exactly what a good American from the red earth of Georgia wants to hear, but there it is.  The sad truth, in all its unvarnished beauty.

Where you are going from there with your question quoted at the top of this post is kind of hard to fathom.  Do you mean to imply that there is a relationship between the ability to hold onto power and a leader's reputation for truthfulness?  In which case, how is it that George W. Bush, a known liar, still holds on as "leader" of the U.S.A.?

Plane

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2007, 06:14:36 AM »
<<You mean that millions could still be liveing under the thumb of Saddam if he had of hd a reutation for honesty , or some means of proveing his word?>>

I'm having a little trouble following your thought processes here, plane.  You asked a fairly straightforward question, whether it "was really possible" to take Saddam's word on anything.  You got a fairly straightforward answer, a simple yes, with a simple example drawn from real life:  on the issue of Iraqi WMD, it was "really possible" to have taken Saddam's word that he did not, and anyone who took Bush's word, that he (Saddam) did have WMD, would have been sadly deceived.

Your question was answered in a way that requires no further interpretation.  The answer was clear and unambiguous, although not, I gather, what you expected it would have been.  Not only does it prove that Saddam's word COULD have been believed, it proves that Bush's word CAN'T be believed.  Not exactly what a good American from the red earth of Georgia wants to hear, but there it is.  The sad truth, in all its unvarnished beauty.

Where you are going from there with your question quoted at the top of this post is kind of hard to fathom.  Do you mean to imply that there is a relationship between the ability to hold onto power and a leader's reputation for truthfulness?  In which case, how is it that George W. Bush, a known liar, still holds on as "leader" of the U.S.A.?



I don't know how you missed this,  but Saddam had a carreer of mayhem and falsehood since his teens .

George Bush has not been caught in a single definate instance definately attempting to be deceptive.

Michael Tee

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2007, 12:17:02 PM »
<<I don't know how you missed this,  but Saddam had a carreer of mayhem and falsehood since his teens .

<<George Bush has not been caught in a single definate instance definately attempting to be deceptive.>>

You've got to be kidding.  George W. Bush lied to SEC investigators.  Gave two conflicting explanations of why he was nine months late filing an insider trading report.  There was no way that both explanations could have been true.  That was an open-and-shut case of lying.

Lying about the weapons of mass destruction and the reasons for invading Iraq are clear enough to me and millions of others.  I make a lot of decisions in business and in private life where I have to conclude if someone is telling the truth or not, and I'm pretty experienced at it.  My call on what I've seen is not only that Bush lied, but frankly, I don't see how any reasonable person could believe otherwise.  Would I condemn the guy to death on evidence of that strength?  Probably not, but for everyday decisions not calling for proof beyond any or all reasonable doubt, what I've seen is more than good enough for me.

BT

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2007, 12:23:25 PM »
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Lying about the weapons of mass destruction and the reasons for invading Iraq are clear enough to me and millions of others.  I make a lot of decisions in business and in private life where I have to conclude if someone is telling the truth or not, and I'm pretty experienced at it.  My call on what I've seen is not only that Bush lied, but frankly, I don't see how any reasonable person could believe otherwise.  Would I condemn the guy to death on evidence of that strength?  Probably not, but for everyday decisions not calling for proof beyond any or all reasonable doubt, what I've seen is more than good enough for me.

This technique of backing the validity of your claims because others may agree with you and besides if they don't they must be braindead is really pretty sad.

Amianthus

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2007, 12:24:41 PM »
George W. Bush lied to SEC investigators.  Gave two conflicting explanations of why he was nine months late filing an insider trading report.

Wait a minute. The records of the SEC investigators were sealed and have never been released.

How do you know what he said to the investigators?
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Michael Tee

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2007, 12:26:38 PM »
<<This technique of backing the validity of your claims because others may agree with you and besides if they don't they must be braindead is really pretty sad. >>

Really, I hope you don't expect me to repeat my reasons for believing that Bush lied in every. fucking. post.

Michael Tee

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2007, 12:29:56 PM »
<<Wait a minute. The records of the SEC investigators were sealed and have never been released.>>

Well, I guess there must have been a few leaks in that seal then.

<<How do you know what he said to the investigators?>>

Same way I know everything else the guy reputedly said.  He doesn't call me up and tell me about it.  I read it in a reputable magazine or newspaper.

BT

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2007, 01:34:02 PM »
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Really, I hope you don't expect me to repeat my reasons for believing that Bush lied in every. fucking. post.

I think simply stating that you believe Bush lied because you want him to have lied should suffice.

Michael Tee

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Re: War - A Grave Loss for Humanity
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2007, 03:04:32 PM »
<<I think simply stating that you believe Bush lied because you want him to have lied should suffice. >>

Well, it would at least have the advantage of achieving symmetry with your view that Bush didn't lie because you don't want him to have lied.