Author Topic: General Disdain Rant  (Read 5348 times)

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Brassmask

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General Disdain Rant
« on: February 02, 2007, 05:06:51 PM »
Legal?  Sure.

And there in lies the rub


It's no real secret that sirs' and I aren't the best of buds at times, but I've gotten really sick to death of this kind of crap.  Far be it for me to be the guy to complain about someone snarking but this is basically what I feel we've been up against for the last six years with Bush and his bullshit cult.

This is the kind of attitude that has torn this nation apart for the last few years and it has been the modus operandi of nearly every conservative from the erstwhile to the hardcore and I've really gotten sick of it.

Over the years, this sort of attitude and mode of responce has just been intellectually insulting.

In this particular case, sirs has used the mode to reply to something I said about Wal-Mart's practice of paying itself rent.  Nowhere in the thread has anyone stated that WM's practices are illegal.  NOWHERE.  I called them unethical and utter bullshit.  Went out of my way to do it, in fact.  And yet, sirs feels in stating that since the practice is legal, then there is nothing inherently wrong with it.  True, he has not flatly stated that there is nothing inherently wrong with it but by stating that the rub lies in the fact that it is legal, he essentially implies that is exactly how he feels.

This tactic is at best annoying, at worst, enraging.  The reason being that I get the impression that he feels that he has "won" somehow.  That by typing this statement and endorsing this LEGAL practice that there is no reason to be talking about the practice to begin with.  (Other impressions I get from this are that he feels this is just more socialist, liberal whining from the left about how they don't have a lot of money and the left feels that "someone else" should shoulder all the government's burdern and on and on and on...) when the facts clearly show that the practice is exploitation of a "loophole".  Now, let's remind ourselves of the definition of "loophole", shall we?  Let's.

loop·hole (lūp'hōl')
n.
A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.

Now, think about that.  It is a means of "evading compliance".  Now come on. 

Are you guys going to sit there and say, "Welp, they orta writ the law better."  WM is a multi-billion dollar corporation with stores worldwide.  It wreaks havoc on small town economies. (Don't start with me!)  Think of the tax dollars that could be collected by small towns from WM if WM wasn't taking advantage (and I mean that exactly how you think I mean that) of the law.

This is plausible deniability.  This is following the letter not the spirit of the law.  This is skating the system.  This is asking forgiveness rather than asking permission.  This is the conservative way.  This is the Bush "administration" mode.  "Oh, there's a law against that?  Oh, I'm soooo sorry.  Our lawyers said that it reads THIS way, not that way.  We're soooo very sorry.  Where do we send the check for the fine?"

And this is how you guys have been supporting your arguments for the last 6 years.  You'd rather call Bush incompetent than a criminal.  You'd rather call him politically conniving when others are calling him incompetent.  You'd rather paint Bush a victim when others are calling him nefarious.  And then when it has been shown over and over and over again that there is something wrong with Bush (whatever it is), you accuse the opponent of being a crybaby because they'd rather just check out of the process of it all.  Worst of all, you haven't taken into account that no matter what the excuse for any and all of Bush's failures, they are always excuses.  It wasn't his fault.  He was lied to.  He was led astray.  He is resolute (code for pigheaded in the face of facts).  Excuse after excuse after excuse.

And all the while that you point out that Bush is doing so and so because of this and that, there has never been one positively indisputably overwhelmingly supported idea of "his" since he stood on the top of that car in New York and proclaimed that some people were going to hear from us.  He has never once done anything or proposed anything that soon couldn't be seen as possibly nefarious or self-serving.  Nothing he has proposed or done has been in the name of the greater good.

You'd rather declare victory on a point that was never contested than confront the true points of the discussion.  The right has set up a "god" in the White House.  All the lies and excuses and plausible deniability used to defend the god myth are employed by the Bush "administration".  He's too busy to take care of this group when this thing is going on.  Free will is how he shows he loves you.  His law is the only law (until it applies to someone I like and then there are all these little loopholes that can be applied).

When comes the end?  I've often asked what would be the thing that would make the hardcore Bush supporter like sirs, Plane, Ami, BT turn on Bush.  There has never been one thing offered.  I think that one time one of the hardcore righties said that he would stop supporting Bush if he withdrew the troops from Iraq.  Do you know how insane that sounds to me?   This is exactly what billions of people want, including IRAQIS and whoever it was said that would be the thing that would make him turn on Bush.  The very thing that would be in the interest of the greater good for ALL is the thing that would make him turn on Bush.  Geez.

The polls show Bush bottoming out at around 30%.  It still boggles my mind that SO many people continue to support him or even like him.  That low a number of people who do just underlines the hardcore "No matter whatters" out there who will never change their minds about him no matter what he does and that's just insanity (same thing over and over) to me.

This really comes off as a rant but it is just because I got incensed over that snarky comment.  I've endeavoured to be LESS snarky and at least, try to make better arguments or if I feel I can't do that, to stay out of them.

sirs

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 05:17:00 PM »
Rant acknowledged.  Hope you feel better now. 

When there's actually illegal conduct going on, please get back to me, so that we can discuss the merits of such.  The idea that if you don't like something perfectly legal is one thing.  The idea that both individuals to large corporations are going to take advancage of various tax loopholes to keep more of their own money is quite different. Dems & Repubs, Lins & Conservatives ALL do that.  so the notion of you getting mad at WalMart but not at the Kennedy's, or the Edwards', or the Kerry's, etc, for the efforts they go thru to give themselves as much tax relief as possible is kinda hypocritical, doncha think?

And that's the issue you're currently ranting about 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 05:22:43 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 05:23:53 PM »
As you imply, morality and the law are not always one and the same.

To use the letter of the law as a crux of an argument is simplistic legalism. Or, in Biblical terms it is the conduct of the Pharisees, who were very often at odds with Christ.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
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   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 05:30:39 PM »
As you imply, morality and the law are not always one and the same.

Agreed.  Again however, indivduals <--> large corporations, both Libs & Conservs have been taking advantage of tax loopholes, and it's been going on for ......... since that tax system was founded I do believe. 

Hey, I'm all for going to a national sales tax, and cut out all loop holes.  Are you on board, or is this only selective hypocritical outrage at those evil corporations, such as WalMart
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 06:18:10 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 05:55:11 PM »
Nowhere in the thread has anyone stated that WM's practices are illegal.  NOWHERE.

By the same token, Walmart is breaking the law that says you can deduct RENT from your taxes BUT isn't really paying RENT.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Brassmask

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 05:59:26 PM »
Rant acknowledged.  Hope you feel better now. 

When there's actually illegal conduct going on, please get back to me, so that we can discuss the merits of such.  The idea that if you don't like something perfectly legal is one thing.  The idea that both individuals to large corporations are going to take advancage of various tax loopholes to keep more of their own money is quite different. Dems & Repubs, Lins & Conservatives ALL do that.  so the notion of you getting mad at WalMart but not at the Kennedy's, or the Edwards', or the Kerry's, etc, for the efforts they go thru to give themselves as much tax relief as possible is kinda hypocritical, doncha think?

And that's the issue you're currently ranting about 

See!?!?!?  You did it again!!  I SPECIFICALLY stated that it wasn't about the legality of it.  And you, once again, there you go dismissing the whole thread and the article simply because it isn't "illegal".

The article didn't mention the Kennedy's, the Edwards', the Kerry's or the Bush's.  If they were paying themselves rent and then taking a deduction for rent then I would certainly hold them to the very same rule.  Do you have any proof or articles stating that any of them are paying themselves rent or taking advantage of a loophole?  If so, then I condemn them for it.

This is the type of bullshit that incensed me from the beginning, sirs.  I wasn't ranting in this thread about the illegality or legality of the rent deductions.  I was most certainly ranting about modus operandi and tactics and the like.  That is specifically why I created a NEW THREAD.  This rant isn't about the Walmart issue.  It's about you and your side.  We can argue the points of the Walmart discussion over there (and we have been).  Let's talk about this over here.

This is falling under the category of a subject that I've been talking about since 2005.  Substance Vs Strategy.  I've long decided that I would rather be right than be in power.  If I could through my vote support both, meaning put into power those that I deem right, then that would be nice but in the current world that we live in, I'll take right over power.

The right held absolute power for so long they forgot about right/substance and as all who forget such, they spent their power on maintaining that power through intrigue and guile and "savvy".  The right in government stopped thinking of the people and only thought of themselves and their own personal interest.

I am constantly at odds with my fellow liberals on DailyKos and the local Memphis blogs because I refuse to agree that people like Lieberman and Ford are GOOD for the Dems in the long run.  They are not.  No more than Benedict Arnolds are, in the long run, good for America.  I'm continually pointing out to my fellow libs that those like the aforementioned are detrimental in that they pay lip service to our beliefs but when it comes to the most important issues they will, like Hillary Clinton, abandon true liberal principles and vote with the conservatives.

So, those aforementioned will paint people like me as incalcitrant and fringe and ideologues when, in fact, I submit I am a realist.  I want to see real results from my government.  I want to see the power of the government do what is right not what is strategically beneficial.  I want to see those who profess to love life do what is logically implied by loving life: Disdain and decry death.  One cannot love life and advocate war and be considered anything other than a hypocrit.

If someone wants to claim they love life then let them make life better for all humans and not just a few or their own lives.  If their goal is make life better for a few humans or just their own, then let them tell the truth and say they love only their own life.

Don't come around saying you love life and you're "pro-life" and then turn around and say that you support Bush's decision to invade Iraq.  The two are incongruous.  I know, I know, invading Iraq is PROTECTING LIFE in the end.  Yes, yes, we all have our delusions.

Me, I'm looking for a Realpolitik Idealistisch.

Brassmask

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 06:02:29 PM »
Nowhere in the thread has anyone stated that WM's practices are illegal.  NOWHERE.

By the same token, Walmart is breaking the law that says you can deduct RENT from your taxes BUT isn't really paying RENT.

The first clearly written nearly 22 minutes PRIOR to the latter.

sirs

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 06:27:01 PM »
See!?!?!?  You did it again!!  I SPECIFICALLY stated that it wasn't about the legality of it.  And you, once again, there you go dismissing the whole thread and the article simply because it isn't "illegal".  The article didn't mention the Kennedy's, the Edwards', the Kerry's or the Bush's.  If they were paying themselves rent and then taking a deduction for rent then I would certainly hold them to the very same rule.  

While your rant is selectively targeting a specific LEGAL loophole, the core of this issue really is on the concept of legal loopholes, especially in the tax code.  Nearly EVERYONE & EVERY COMPANY will take advantage of them.  I already referenced a story I remember about Senator Edwards and the impressive loophole he found in order to keep more of his money.  I even remember a story about Democrat Barney Frank declining a provision in the law which would have allowed the government to tax him more, at a higher rate.  Not surprising or course.  I'm not talking about a specific loophole, like this "rent" your referring to, I'm talking about legal loopholes in general, which INCLUDES what WalMart is apparently dong.  When I start seeing some equal condemnation of yours aimed at that, then you may have a leg to stand on regarding "ethical conduct" of WalMart

So, can we count you on board of a new national sales tax, and toss out the current tax code with all its loopholes?

 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 07:08:31 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 06:53:42 PM »
Don't come around saying you love life and you're "pro-life" and then turn around and say that you support Bush's decision to invade Iraq.  The two are incongruous.  I know, I know, invading Iraq is PROTECTING LIFE in the end.  Yes, yes, we all have our delusions.

And don't come around saying that you're against child abuse and then turn around and say that you support a woman's choice to abort her baby. The two are incongruous.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Brassmask

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 07:01:52 PM »

So, can we count you on board of a new national sales tax, and toss out the current tax code with all its loopholes?


I grow weary of trying to tell you what I was talking about so I'm done with that.

But on this point that I've quoted, the answer is no.  I won't support a federal sales tax because, as most of the right's suggestions, it unfairly burdens the poor.  They'll get to have another great "choice" like "Just buy less food and you won't have to pay so much in tax."  Or "do without your medicine".

sirs

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2007, 07:11:57 PM »
So, can we count you on board of a new national sales tax, and toss out the current tax code with all its loopholes?

I grow weary of trying to tell you what I was talking about so I'm done with that.  But on this point that I've quoted, the answer is no. 

So in the end, it's simply hypocritical condemnation aimed at a company you despise, acting completely within the Rule of Law, while not lifting a finger to deal with the tax code that has led to your selective condemnation.

Got it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 07:29:04 PM »
You're a joke.

sirs

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 07:32:05 PM »
You're a joke.

Umm....ok.  I'm supposed to insult you now, right?  Naaa, I'll let your rant run its rut
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 08:17:39 PM »
They'll get to have another great "choice" like "Just buy less food and you won't have to pay so much in tax."  Or "do without your medicine".

Every proposal for a flat tax that I've seen exempted food, medicine, and clothing.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: General Disdain Rant
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 08:37:46 PM »
The first clearly written nearly 22 minutes PRIOR to the latter.

Regardless, your take on it was that it was illegal from the beginning, hence your repeated comparisons to illegal acts.

Are you going to be nitpicking times now? Fact was, I read your claim of illegality before I read your claim the it was never called illegal.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)