Author Topic: The Other America  (Read 10613 times)

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Plane

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2007, 12:05:25 AM »
Did he really start out as a man of modest means?


Did the system as it is facilitate his efforts to improve his own condition?


Are the changes he advocates going to make it harder to follow the path he took or easyer?

_JS

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2007, 09:43:13 AM »
Quote
Maybe I'm being unfair. It's possible. But I see no reason why I should not consider his actions when assessing the man and his message.

In that sense, why do Conservatives who run on family values and morals gripe when more attention is placed on them when they are caught in decidedly amoral actions?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2007, 10:50:10 AM »
Quote
Maybe I'm being unfair. It's possible. But I see no reason why I should not consider his actions when assessing the man and his message.

In that sense, why do Conservatives who run on family values and morals gripe when more attention is placed on them when they are caught in decidedly amoral actions?

How does that address Prince's point?  Does Edwards get a pass on assessing his actions, because some conservative is caught with his pants down?  Same thing applies, Js.  If some conservative who preaches family values is caught performing amoral acts, his credibility in pushing a more morals is substantially degraded.  The "gripe" is largely in referencing how Conservatives are apparently unable/not allowed to be human, with vitriolic condemnation applied for when one does fall, while Libs getting caught for acts even more egregious are pretty much given a pass by those same folks, because Libs apparently don't have a moral platform.  There's where your "gripe" comes from
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2007, 12:32:51 PM »
I made my points and stand by them Sirs. I see no reason to reiterate them another time.

My point is that I find it humorous that Edwards is condemned for his home, while some of the same people making these condemnations have been shouting about how unfairly the conservatives are treated when they are caught with their pants down after preaching morality to the American public.

You can't have it both ways.

As for the question itself, I think the answer is relatively simple.

Look at it like early Christianity. There was a great debate between the very early Christian scholars on what to do with non-Christian (and non-Jewish) philosophy and learning. Was it valuable? What place did it hold?

Some scholars argued that it held no value. It was not fruit from the divine and therefore held nothing of value for a Christian. Indeed, any such philosophy could only lead to heresy. Tertullian was somewhat noted for this position.

Other scholars argued that it certainly had value. It wasn't divinely inspired, sure, but there was clearly value in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and other Gentile cultures and philosophies. To simply discount them completely, due to their pagan roots was faulty logic. They weren't there to replace Christian thought, but surely they would be useful. Proponents of this course included Saint Clement and Saint Augustine.

The argument still occurs today in some form (and I gave a rather simple view), but I agree with the latter as did the great Scholastic thinkers.

I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah, Edwards may have built himself a grand estate. Yet, that doesn't make his ideas terrible by default. In my mind that is a ridiculous manner of approaching the issues.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2007, 12:46:01 PM »
I made my points and stand by them Sirs. I see no reason to reiterate them another time.

Which point would that be?


My point is that I find it humorous that Edwards is condemned for his home, while some of the same people making these condemnations have been shouting about how unfairly the conservatives are treated when they are caught with their pants down after preaching morality to the American public.

See how you singled out 1 person to apply your rationlization, but then apply a broad brush when trying to make a comparison.  The "gripe" has been explained.  The "gripe" is in the largely applied free pass that folks on the left get for far more egregious ammoral/immoral acts, based on some psuedo non-moral platform apparently.  Are you alluding that the left has no moral foundation, thus the explaination for the pass they get?


You can't have it both ways.

Not asking for it.  You seem to be the one hung up on the attached rhetoric, coming from whomever.  What I'm asking for is in fact equal condemnation for equally immoral/ammoral acts.   Regardless of what they do or don't "preach".  From the other thread, a request for equal condemnation for racist acts, whether it's white on black or black on what-ever.

And both Prince's & Bt's commentaries remain valid in judging Edwards, as we'd judge any indivdual, for their actions, as compared to their rhetoric


As for the question itself, I think the answer is relatively simple.  Look at it like early Christianity. There was a great debate between the very early Christian scholars on what to do with non-Christian (and non-Jewish) philosophy and learning. Was it valuable? What place did it hold?   Some scholars argued that it held no value. It was not fruit from the divine and therefore held nothing of value for a Christian. Indeed, any such philosophy could only lead to heresy. Tertullian was somewhat noted for this position.  Other scholars argued that it certainly had value. It wasn't divinely inspired, sure, but there was clearly value in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and other Gentile cultures and philosophies. To simply discount them completely, due to their pagan roots was faulty logic. They weren't there to replace Christian thought, but surely they would be useful. Proponents of this course included Saint Clement and Saint Augustine.   The argument still occurs today in some form (and I gave a rather simple view), but I agree with the latter as did the great Scholastic thinkers.   I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah, Edwards may have built himself a grand estate. Yet, that doesn't make his ideas terrible by default. In my mind that is a ridiculous manner of approaching the issues.

Not so simple apparently     :-\   Also keep in mind, no is claiming Edwards' rhetoric is defacto terrible, only that his credibility in applying what he preaches takes a hit.....JUST as the conservative who preaches moral values, takes a major credibility hit if found having an extramarital fling with an intern. Or are you claiming that said conservative's actions need not be necessarily applied to the "ideas" and rhetoric they're advocating?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 03:16:20 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2007, 06:50:52 PM »

Quote
Maybe I'm being unfair. It's possible. But I see no reason why I should not consider his actions when assessing the man and his message.

In that sense, why do Conservatives who run on family values and morals gripe when more attention is placed on them when they are caught in decidedly amoral actions?


Because they thought they could get away with it? Because talking about standards is easier than living up to them? I don't know. Edwards' professed ideas may be grand (though I disagree with him more often than not about policy issues), but again, I see no reason why I should not consider his actions when assessing the man and his message. I do the same for conservative politicians and libertarian politicians and all other politicians. And for most people trying to sell me something. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Diane

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 07:56:14 PM »
a picture of Bush or Cheney's digs does not quite make the point of poor suffering democrats... fighting for the little guy... making big gubment to look after dem folks that can't look after dem selves.


How about a picture of Cheney's digs?  Or Juniorbush's ranch?



Jwmcc

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 11:14:34 PM »
Cro!!!!!

Plane

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2007, 03:11:23 AM »
Quote
Maybe I'm being unfair. It's possible. But I see no reason why I should not consider his actions when assessing the man and his message.

In that sense, why do Conservatives who run on family values and morals gripe when more attention is placed on them when they are caught in decidedly amoral actions?

Is this situaton really analougus?

If it is ,why are liberals waiting for conservatives to complain?

Diane

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2007, 08:17:39 AM »
Cro!!!!!


Yep, tis I.

I just couldn't resist... wot with the not so kind and gentler me.


Michael Tee

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Re: The Other America
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2007, 10:14:06 AM »
<<Yep, tis I.>>

Holy sh . . . 

Uh, I mean, hi.