Author Topic: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks  (Read 35686 times)

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sirs

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And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« on: February 06, 2007, 11:34:24 AM »
Iran challenges Europe to hand over Holocaust 'proof'

Feb 06, 2007

An Iranian government-sponsored body set up to probe the veracity of the Holocaust has challenged Europe to hand over documents about the mass slaughter of Jews in World War II.

Mohammad Ali Ramin, the head of the "World Holocaust Foundation" created after Iran's controversial Holocaust conference last year, said Austria, Germany and Poland in particular should supply documents.

"They should hand over the proof for the dossier on the organized massacre of Jews in Europe during World War II to the independent international fact-finding committee affiliated to this foundation," the IRNA state news agency quoted him as saying on Tuesday.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ordered the creation of the foundation after inviting a number of controversial revisionist Holocaust researchers to a conference in Tehran in December that caused an international outcry.

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly questioned the scale of the Holocaust, described the mass killing of six million Jews in World War II as a "myth" and also called for Israel to be "wiped from the map".

The foreign researchers invited to the conference -- some of whom have criminal records at home -- gave papers claiming the Holocaust never happened on the scale assumed by the vast majority of historians.

Mainstream historians specialising in the Third Reich counter there is ample documentary proof that around six million Jews were killed by the Nazis in World War II although some estimates put the figure slightly higher or lower.

The UN General Assembly last month unanimously approved a US-proposed resolution condemning denial of the Holocaust, in a move diplomats said was directly aimed at Iran's stance.


Iran demands proof of Holocaust
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 11:41:07 AM »
Why do they want it "handed over"?

If they want to see it, they can go see it where it's currently housed.

Only reason I can see that they want it "handed over" is to destroy it.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 11:57:53 AM »
Why do they want it "handed over"?  If they want to see it, they can go see it where it's currently housed.  Only reason I can see that they want it "handed over" is to destroy it.

D'OH, I didn't even think of that.  Excellent hypothesis
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 04:15:49 AM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 06:33:36 AM »
The foreign researchers invited to the conference -- some of whom have criminal records at home -- gave papers claiming the Holocaust never happened on the scale assumed by the vast majority of historians.

OK, it should be said... the reason that these researchers have "criminal records" at home is BECAUSE they've challenged the history of the holocaust. It is a CRIME in France and Austria (and Israel) to question it. Specifically, the laws are called "Holocaust Revisionist Laws."

Here are a few links that came up on top in a Google search about the "crime":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4578534.stm
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1235072.php/Holocaust_denier_Irving_freed_by_Austrian_court__Roundup_
http://community.freespeech.org/node/3546

IMO, there is no question about the Holocaust and the atrocities. But for some there is, and to make it criminal to ask questions is utter BULLSHIT. Further, making it a crime has fueled the debate in countries like Iran (I mean, if you have to make freedom of speech criminal on an issue, doesn't that just power the "conspiracy theory" side even more?) and OF COURSE they want to talk to these historians.

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 10:30:39 AM »
See, this would be an acceptable attitude Sirs, if you took the same position with other nations that question atrocities.

Yet, I've never seen you place Japan or Turkey in the same league with Iran. I've never seen you say "ARE WE SUPPOSED TO TALK TO THESE GUYS?" and have a picture of a Japanese Prime Minister or Turkish secular leaders.

Henny is right, of course, thought she left out a few countries. Holocaust denial is illegal in Poland, France, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Romania, Czech Republic, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, The Netherlands, Slovakia and Switzerland. The stiffest penalties can bring ten to twenty years of prison time.

I don't see you Sirs, discussing how nuts the mainstream government of Turkey is for denying the Armenian Genocide. This has been a point of contention for Turkey's entrance into the EU, which your president has promoted several times to the European leaders.

I don't see you demanding the diwthdrawal of our diplomats from Japan over their refusal to accept their role in the Rape of Nanking, one of the most well-documented atrocities in world history. Why do we talk with Japan?

I don't see you demanding the Croatian Government step up to the plate and admit to their massacres of the Serbians in World War II, in death camps just like those used on the Jews and Roma at the hands of the Nazis.

What about Indonesia and our own role in allowing the massacres in East Timor of hundreds of thousands of Timorese? Up to a third of the Christian population there. Have you tried to get the Indonesian government to admit the crimes and attempted to have the United States pay some reparations?

I didn't think so. I recognize false outrage when I see it. Just add Iran to the list of lousy governments in world history, but don't pretend that it helps you make your case. Your outrage is selective and honestly, using the Holocaust to make your political arguments is no better than what those Iranian "scholars" are doing. In fact, it is very much the same thing.

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sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 10:56:07 AM »
IMO, there is no question about the Holocaust and the atrocities. But for some there is, and to make it criminal to ask questions is utter BULLSHIT.

Agreed....BUT....for those to deny it, claim it's a fabrication, and then others demand that the U.S. "talk" to these same folks, is alot like us trying to talk to Charlie Manson.....IMHO.  What does it accomplish, outside of making others feel better about themselves that "we tried"?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2007, 11:08:02 AM »
I don't see you Sirs, discussing how nuts the mainstream government of Turkey is for denying the Armenian Genocide. This has been a point of contention for Turkey's entrance into the EU, which your president has promoted several times to the European leaders.  I don't see you demanding the diwthdrawal of our diplomats from Japan over their refusal to accept their role in the Rape of Nanking, one of the most well-documented atrocities in world history. Why do we talk with Japan?  I don't see you demanding the Croatian Government step up to the plate and admit to their massacres of the Serbians in World War II, in death camps just like those used on the Jews and Roma at the hands of the Nazis.

Neither do I see any of these nations at the forefront of the current mideast debacle, and the effort at trying to stabilize the region.  When it becomes relevent, then I just may.  To do so now, is wasting energy, and perhaps even making things worse.  Is that what you want?


I recognize false outrage when I see it.

Apparently not, if you're implying my current outrage at the likes of Syria, Iran, and insurgents/terrorists, bent on killing innocent women & children as "fake".  Just because I don't routinely add every other nation's egregious acts, when I'm demonstrating the utter fallicy of trying to "talk" to the likes of Iran & Syria, doesn't make my outrage at the more relevent ones, as it relates to this issue, any less sincere or vaild, thank you very much   
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2007, 11:28:13 AM »
Quote
Neither do I see any of these nations at the forefront of the current mideast debacle, and the effort at trying to stabilize the region.  When it becomes relevent, then I just may.  To do so now, is wasting energy, and perhaps even making things worse.  Is that what you want?

You're just changing the subject out of convenience. You're saying, and I quote: "for those to deny it, claim it's a fabrication, and then others demand that the U.S. "talk" to these same folks, is alot like us trying to talk to Charlie Manson" now either you apply that across the board, or you don't. You either believe it, or you don't. What I see here is someone using the Holocaust for their political benefit - in that way you are no different than the Iranian government.

Quote
Apparently not, if you're implying my current outrage at the likes of Syria, Iran, and insurgents/terrorists, bent on killing innocent women & children as "fake".  Just because I don't routinely add every other nation's egregious acts, when I'm demonstrating the utter fallicy of trying to "talk" to the likes of Iran & Syria, doesn't make my outrage at the more relevent ones, as it relates to this issue, any less sincere or vaild, thank you very much

I'm not going to get into anything personal. I just call it like I see it and here I see a false outrage for certain. It isn't that you "don't routinely add every other nation's egregious acts" which I never suggested, but that you only apply such measures when you need them to make your self-serving political argument.

The truth is that we have intimate dealings with Turkey and Japan, but I see nothing from you. President Bush has given speeches in Istanbul. Silence from you.

What's your stand on the Armenian Genocide and Turkey's entrance to the European Union? Do you agree with the President that America should push for their entrance? Should we have Japan formally apologise to China in the United Nations over the Rape of Nanking? What do we owe the Timorese for allowing Suharto to invade them? How should we handle the Croatian atrocities committed in World War II?

That doesn't even touch on the Palestinian and Israeli atrocities dating back to 1948. Should we discuss those as well?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2007, 11:45:29 AM »
Quote
Neither do I see any of these nations at the forefront of the current mideast debacle, and the effort at trying to stabilize the region.  When it becomes relevent, then I just may.  To do so now, is wasting energy, and perhaps even making things worse.  Is that what you want?

You're just changing the subject out of convenience.

No, try relevence. 


What I see here is someone using the Holocaust for their political benefit - in that way you are no different than the Iranian government.

Showing another's complete irrationality both the folks we're to talk to, as well as by the folks demanding to whom we talk to is "using the holocaust for political benefit".  Yea, right.  You keep right on believing that Js.  Oy      ::)


Quote
Apparently not, if you're implying my current outrage at the likes of Syria, Iran, and insurgents/terrorists, bent on killing innocent women & children as "fake".  Just because I don't routinely add every other nation's egregious acts, when I'm demonstrating the utter fallicy of trying to "talk" to the likes of Iran & Syria, doesn't make my outrage at the more relevent ones, as it relates to this issue, any less sincere or vaild, thank you very much

I'm not going to get into anything personal. I just call it like I see it and here I see a false outrage for certain.

Hey, you're absolutely entitled to your perceptions Js, as wrong and as misguided as they are. 


The truth is that we have intimate dealings with Turkey and Japan, but I see nothing from you. President Bush has given speeches in Istanbul. Silence from you.

And............?  That acheives what precisely in Iraq?  You see Js, your attempt here sure seems to be that unless we have equal outrage, then no outrage is allowed.  You seem to be implying since we don't have equal outrage, then by design, we have to "talk" to the likes of Iran & Syria?  See where your hypothesis falls apart yet?


What's your stand on the Armenian Genocide and Turkey's entrance to the European Union?

Don't have one, since I'm not up to speed on any of it.  Neither do I have the time to delve into into it, unless you can demonstrate to how relevent it is to the current issue of Iraq & the war on Terror.  Demonstrate how trying to attach a "Faiirness Outrage Doctrine" will help the situation in Iraq & that immediate region. 


That doesn't even touch on the Palestinian and Israeli atrocities dating back to 1948. Should we discuss those as well?

Already have, thank you very much.  When you can get the neighboring countries to accept Israel as part of the region, and to denounce their rhetoric on an agenda of seeing Israel cease to exist, then we can go into more discussion, on that matter
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2007, 12:05:35 PM »

Don't have one, since I'm not up to speed on any of it.  Neither do I have the time to delve into into it, unless you can demonstrate to how relevent it is to the current issue of Iraq & the war on Terror.  Demonstrate how trying to attach a "Faiirness Outrage Doctrine" will help the situation in Iraq & that immediate region. 


Sirs, I apologize in advance for using you as the basis to make a certain point :-)

It seems to me that part of the problem might be stated right here in Sirs' post. He's not "up to speed on any of it" [Armenian genocide and Turkey's entrance into the EU]. How many people are up to speed? I've met people who've never even heard of the Armenian genocide. The Rape of Nanking... (the rape of WHOSE King?) But one thing for sure that every American is up to speed on is the Jewish Holocaust.

Now Sirs, answer this. Since the Armenian Genocide and the Rape of Nanking, etc., aren't relevant to the point you are trying to make... how is it that the Jewish Holocaust in WWII is? You are lamenting about Iran's actions in Iraq and the instability they are causing in the region. But what does that have to do with the Holocaust and how does the Holocaust fit into the discussion? If the U.S. can set aside atrocities to have "talks" with other nations, can't we set aside the fact that Iran is discussing the Holocaust and asking questions about it... in order to serve the purpose of stabilizing Iraq?

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2007, 12:10:12 PM »
Now Sirs, answer this. Since the Armenian Genocide and the Rape of Nanking, etc., aren't relevant to the point you are trying to make... how is it that the Jewish Holocaust in WWII is?

Simple, the folks that we're being urged to 'talk to", to supposedly help bring peace tru diplomacy. are the same folks that pretty much deny it's existance...translated, irrational, if not demented (though honestly, I thought I already answered that question before).  And no apologies necessary
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 12:15:37 PM »
Quote
Simple, the folks that we're being urged to 'talk to", to supposedly help bring peace tru diplomacy. are the same folks that pretty much deny it's existance...translated, irrational, if not demented (though honestly, I thought I already answered that question before).

So we should just go to war with them, instead of attempting diplomacy... because they've questioned the Holocaust? (Kill 'em all. They even deny the Holocaust!)

I was on my way out the door to go out to dinner (bit time difference between here and CA, LOL), and something else struck me. Talking to Iran is like talking to Charlie Manson? Since when? Use that comparison for those who were responsible for the Holocaust... not someone who is just asking questions. Sheesh!  :)

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 12:46:08 PM »
Henny is exactly right.

Sirs, you use ignorance as an excuse to show selective outrage.

Quote
Don't have one, since I'm not up to speed on any of it.  Neither do I have the time to delve into into it, unless you can demonstrate to how relevent it is to the current issue of Iraq & the war on Terror.

Actually Turkey is very relevant to Iraq and the War on Terror, but since you "have no time" for it, I'll leave you to your ignorance is bliss model.

Quote
When you can get the neighboring countries to accept Israel as part of the region, and to denounce their rhetoric on an agenda of seeing Israel cease to exist, then we can go into more discussion, on that matter

A response that shows your ignorance of the issues. For example, Greece acknowledges both nations, yet Greek Christians had their villages destroyed in 1948 and have yet to be allowed to return and resettle their land.

Quote
Simple, the folks that we're being urged to 'talk to", to supposedly help bring peace tru diplomacy. are the same folks that pretty much deny it's existance...translated, irrational, if not demented (though honestly, I thought I already answered that question before).  And no apologies necessary

Well, you got one part right. Henny did not owe you an apology, she did so out of courtesy. Your association is irrational (it is nothing like Charles Manson). Your selective reasoning is irresponsible (you use the Holocaust when it is convenient). And your pride in your ignorance is deplorable (it is an affront to the innocent people who died in no less horror than those murdered in the Holocaust).

You've officially crossed from political expedience into just plain disgusting Sirs.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 01:26:15 PM »
Quote
Simple, the folks that we're being urged to 'talk to", to supposedly help bring peace tru diplomacy. are the same folks that pretty much deny it's existance...translated, irrational, if not demented (though honestly, I thought I already answered that question before).

So we should just go to war with them, instead of attempting diplomacy... because they've questioned the Holocaust? (Kill 'em all. They even deny the Holocaust!)  I was on my way out the door to go out to dinner (bit time difference between here and CA, LOL), and something else struck me. Talking to Iran is like talking to Charlie Manson? Since when? Use that comparison for those who were responsible for the Holocaust... not someone who is just asking questions. Sheesh!  :)

A) Didn't say we need to go to war (Neither has Bush, BTW)
B) If we did, it wouldn't be because they deny the holocaust (anyone that seriously questions that the holocaust is a made up story is simply ignorant of their history) and that's largely what "questioning the Holocaust" is all about.  In this case, it's about overt anti-semites, most in the form of certain Arabs/Persians, trying to remove the historical significance of what happened to Jews in WWII, by "questioning" whether it ever happened.  I agree it's ludicrous to make it a crime.  I also will state for the record it's ludicrous to claim/believe the Holocaust never really happened.  And trying to talk to "ludicrous people like that is why I referenced Manson.  Not for the pathological killer he was, but for the sheer lunacy of his beliefs

Have a great dinner, Miss Henny
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 01:33:31 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle