Author Topic: Hyde Admendment  (Read 5428 times)

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sirs

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2014, 07:36:56 PM »
If I say that I rode in on a dinosaur, you would ask to see it.

Sure.  That'd be kinda cool to see.  If you don't want to show it to me, that's fine as well. 


If I said that you have to prove to me that I didn't ride in on a dinosaur, you would be justified in telling me that I was full of crap.

I'm not the one claiming everyone must believe I rode in on a dinosaur.  See the difference??  You're not required to believe in Adam & Eve, nor am I required to prove it to you.  If you don't believe it, fine.  But if you're going to insist it's just something madeup, and that anyone that believes in the bible is somehow certifiably insane, than YOU are required to prove it.  And not just your say so

Ball in your court
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2014, 08:39:58 PM »
First, no one can prove a negative, ever. That is a fundamental rule of logic.
Second, the burden of proof lies with the person making the allegation.

You allege that there once were a couple named Adam and Eve and they succumbed to being convinced by a talking snake to eat a fruit, which would condemn them and every one of their descendents to eternal damnation by an invisible being in the sky.

The first episode of ALF in which he arrived from the Planet Melmac was less preposterous.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2014, 09:01:26 PM »
Then you're going to have a really hard time proving your hypothesis now, aren't you.  Good luck, and may the ALF be with you
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2014, 09:08:23 PM »
So you were there when the Leakeys  found the fossils known as Lucy?

It is just who you choose to trust .


I can think that the story of Adam and Eve is allegorical without causing harm, the Bible has a lot of hypothetical statement and allegorical story, one must ask, what is the message in context?

Adam and Eve explore human nature whether they are facts or not.

And who would Adam really be anyhow? The first person to develop sentience? The first person to realize God and good and evil?

I don't really have the complete answer on this , but I am pretty sure that the creation story is not intended to be a" how to " manual for people who want to create life. Nor is it a complete history. Adam and Eve don't even have their daughters mentioned. I don't see any pretense of being a complete history of events.

   But somewhere back there , there was someone who started communion with God, someone who lost the innocence that God gave a Tiger, who exactly , why not Adam?

Plane

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2014, 09:10:22 PM »
First, no one can prove a negative, ever. That is a fundamental rule of logic.
Second, the burden of proof lies with the person making the allegation.

You allege that there once were a couple named Adam and Eve and they succumbed to being convinced by a talking snake to eat a fruit, which would condemn them and every one of their descendents to eternal damnation by an invisible being in the sky.

The first episode of ALF in which he arrived from the Planet Melmac was less preposterous.


   Which argument is the negative one?

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2014, 11:00:00 PM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 08:56:48 AM »
There is no proof whatever that Adam or Eve ever existed. There is considerable evidence that snakes are incapable of speech.

The entire story has the format of a myth, and a rather childish one at that.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 09:24:43 AM »

   But somewhere back there , there was someone who started communion with God, someone who lost the innocence that God gave a Tiger, who exactly , why not Adam?
========================================================================================
You are assuming that Man was ever "innocent". Are apes innocent by any human standards?  Watching binabos or chimps would probably be enough to convince any rational person otherwise.

The "God" you claim that people are in communion with is mute, invisible, odorless and generally imperceptible by all the senses other than the imagination, which is also useful for imagining Barney the Purple dinosaur, unicorns, griffins and jackalopes. People who hear voices are generally regarded as mentally unsound, unless of course, they claim to talk to God. David Koresh claimed to perceive God. You can read the rantings of the insane in many case histories that are indistinguishable from the rantings of John or Patmos, the alleged author of the Book of Revelation.

According to Biblical lore, in Eden all the animals were peaceful and never ate one another. Tigers and bunnies were the best of pals. One assumes that tigers, lions and wolves were vegetarians that only snacked on grass, leaves, veggies and fruit. Snakes were also innocent, but for some reason, the omniscient and omnipresent character called "God" allowed Satan (whom he has previously designed to go bad on him) to influence one particular reptile. Perhaps there was only one snake, but after recommending that Even take a bite out of the Forbidden Fruit, ALL snakes were punished. Tigers became instantly carnivores, thereby punishing bunnies and other small, cute, innocent creatures that had nothing at all to do with Adam, Eve or the Talking Serpent.

Do you think that the Talking Serpent spoke like with, with a lithp? 

It is a rather silly story, no more true than the Fables of Aesop.

What the Bible claims is that Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden (why, would it not have been possible to just turn it into a jungle?) We know that wherever the Garden was, it no longer exists. There is nowhere on this planet where wolves and tigers are vegetarians.

People got meaner and nastier, until God decided to wipe all but six of them with the Flood. Noah & Co. was saved. But then his descendents went and got meaner and nastier again, so this time God decided to send Jesus.  Apparently, he also caused a lot of false prophets as well. False prophets were a dime a dozen back in the time of Jesus.

Then people were instructed to practice symbolic ritual cannibalism (Eat, this is my body; Drink, this is my blood) in order to be forgiven for Adam and Eve snacking way back when on a fruit offered by a talking snake. Seriously, how can any rational, thinking person swallow all this stuff?

Christians are asked to believe a ton of truly illogical, silly and childish crap.

Note, I have not ruled out the possibility that there could be  Creator Deity. Just not the one mentioned in the assortment of folklore, legend and dietary commands known as the Bible.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2014, 10:37:13 AM »
There is no proof whatever that Adam or Eve ever existed.

Good thing the burden is't on me, or any other Christian, to prove or disprove anything. 

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2014, 11:36:16 AM »
The burden for anyone who alleges silly shit exists is to provide evidence of the sort than can be reproduced.

How did they prove that Neptune exists, except by saying that according to the time and position in the sky, Neptune will be of this intensity, this color and at this exact position in the sky. Neptune is a reproducible phenomena, therefore it exists.

Not one Christian or anyone else can do this in the case of God, Jesus or any of the so-called "miracles". You have the right to believe silly crap all you want. You can believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it as well. But your belief, in scientific terms, ain't worth shit.

The reason so many people believe silly crap is that they are indoctrinated with it as children, before they have developed any coherent reasoning skills. The part of your mind that causes you to believe this was frozen in its development when you were a snotty little kid. Face it. That is the FACT.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2014, 04:39:27 PM »
But your belief, in scientific terms, ain't worth shit. Face it. That is the FACT.

And you should face the fact that science has stated many, many, many times
something as being a fact when it was later found out .....
Oooops we was wrong once AGAIN!

Science throughout human history has been wrong over and over again.
But you think...Oh now...it's all finally right!
What a CROCK and narcissistic view of reality.

I have low blood platelets...
my hematologist has done just about every test there is...
and he says "well it's just a guess, but I think it may be......blah blah"
point being many times "science" doesn't "know" shit!

they guess at how the universe came into being
they have no "proof".....they have guesses and leaps of faith


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2014, 05:59:56 PM »
You do not understand science, it appears. Science does not make high-falutin' proclamations like religion.
Science always assumes that the possibility of a specific phenomena being incorrect. It approximates a description of reality, and then tests it by assuming that it is false and examining what would be the effects if it was false. If, for example, the Sun revolved around the Earth, how would that effect the observable effects on other planets.
So you end up with a comparison between phenomena as they are observed and what they would be if hypotheses X  (say the Sun revolves around the Earth) is true, and if  hypotheses Y (The Earth revolves around the Sun) is true. And you compare these with the recorded and observations. If neither is close to accurate, you postulate another hypotheses (the Sun and Earth both revolve around Jupiter).

You cannot do this with the events described in Genesis, because there is insufficient data. What you do with wild off the wall statements (tigers used to be vegetarians until Adam, Eve and a talking snake messed up everything is observe what we know about changes to tiger physiology over they years, and of course, from fossil evidence any fool can see that paleo tigers (like the saber toothed tiger, for example) were obviously not designed to feed on prunes,  blue fescue or toadstools.

Science APPROXIMATES the truth and does not recognize that there is any absolute authority on anything. It does say, however, that the probability of vegetarian paleotigers existing , based on what is known about tigers is .0000001%.

The probability that communion wine and wafers changing miraculously into Jesusblood and Jesusmeat is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. and if eaten, the probability of this having a real effect on the ritual cannibal Christian is .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2014, 06:05:32 PM »
Perhaps if you prayed REALLY HARD, "Christians" God Awmighty will let you know what is going on with your platelets. Try it.

I believe that Leakey found some ancient bones that seem to be those of a very ancient human ancestor and named them Lucy. I don't think Leakey claims more than that. It is proof that something similar to humans once lived and died in what is now Kenya. It is a million times more probable that you are related to Lucy in some way than you are related to Adam and Eve who fucked up everything by paying attention to a talking snake.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2014, 07:23:58 PM »

 
It is a rather silly story, no more true than the Fables of Aesop.


I remember asking this before, is Aesop true?

Are Koan true?

Are Unkle Remus tales true?

Sure they are , but not literally.

  I do not think that king Solomon's lover had a neck like a tower of alabaster brick, literally.

  Whether Adam was a single person , or is an allegorical representation of mankind is NOT important, whether his story is literally true or not it not the point of the story, and getting hung up on such a triviality helps one miss the point . Adam and Eve are a description of the Human condition and have profound truths to teach.

  As to whether the question of which came first , chicken or egg, should I nail down understanding of this unimportant question before I learn how to make an omelet'?

    There is no pretense in the Bible that the stories in Genesis are a complete history . Noah is described with such lack of detail that making a movie about him required a lot of license. I think it quite possible that Adam and Eve were literal people , but it is not possible that this story explains all of creation, Eves daughters are not even mentioned so I think it a given that there were more actual people than Adam and Eve, but that responsibility starts somewhere for our natural corruption is the point.

    Noah seems to be a record of all the known world being flooded and humanity reduced to a remnant, there is archeological evidence of this happening in many places over the world in the Pacific , Mediterranean, and the North Sea. Isn't it amazing that something that must have been very old before it was ever written agrees with evidence that can be found now , even a little?


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Hyde Admendment
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2014, 07:47:28 PM »
You cannot do this with the events described in Genesis, because there is insufficient data.

You can't do this in many areas of science either because there is "insufficient data".

Those scientist speculating about "Black Holes" don't really know
what the hell they are guessing about....currently just like throughout
human history they do not have enough data..."insufficient data"!
to really even guess what is going on....just like humans have
"insufficient data" to really understand God.
You are free to pretend otherwise.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987