Author Topic: Targeting militias  (Read 17464 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2007, 02:03:58 PM »
Not saying they cannot exist--just saying that the mere fact that they claim fame to Jesus does not qualify them to be regarded as gospel. 

So, who gets to decide which religions can "be regarded as gospel"?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

yellow_crane

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2007, 02:23:03 PM »
I'm guessing religion is now a wedge issue, much like class and race before it.

Divide and conquer.




What you say about the zeitgeist of current American politics is true, but what does it say about the zeitgeist of current American politics?

Maybe the final wedge issue will be that one either subscribes generally to the tenets of our religious institutions, and expects the morality of their leaders to be in the same ballpark, or that all salient decisions will be made by those whose only God is money (power.)

My hope is that while most of America watches to see who emerges as the next groomed kuppie candidate to capture the masses, they will tangentially witness that new religious voices are emerging, defining newer, truer parameters of our established religion and its over-all contribution to our moral fibre.

That way, at least, while many people currently want to see government separated from reiligion, others will begin to see that delivering religion from the clutches of the politicians will, in the end, permit their proper influence.

It is because the religions lie within the lair of the beast that we suffer because they have been rendered sterile and have no force.


yellow_crane

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2007, 02:30:04 PM »
Not saying they cannot exist--just saying that the mere fact that they claim fame to Jesus does not qualify them to be regarded as gospel. 

So, who gets to decide which religions can "be regarded as gospel"?

Well, a start would be to have someone who can admit that there are some parameters. 

Amianthus

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2007, 02:43:45 PM »
Well, a start would be to have someone who can admit that there are some parameters. 

What parameters are listed in the First Amendment?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

domer

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2007, 04:07:09 PM »
From a proper perspective and a proper practice, we should not be looking at religion from the "outside" as a possible structure for our politics and how it can be modulated. Rather, I suggest -- and this itself has political implications, though residual -- we should first form an honest idea of how religion explains or enhances the world, and then marry that conception to the political affairs we must attend to, or not. The distinction I tout is substantive, I think, focusing more closely on the material elements of religion and politics and their intersecting or divergent paths. The distinction is also formal, planting the seat of decision in the individual, where I contend it belongs in the first instance, and not approaching the matter as a macro-analysis of a so-called ideal or healthy polity.

That much said, what else can you do but take up political arms when a so-called religious sect preaches a predominantly avaricious theory of spirituality ... and acts in accordance by throwing its weight behind political trends? The way I see it, this does not change the paradigm of the individual encounter with God and the holy which I've sketched, but virtually mandates that the authentic voices of those religious and non-religious who are gifted with a different insight have the means of projecting their individual and collective visions onto the political stage as a counterbalance, if nothing else.

yellow_crane

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2007, 05:57:33 PM »
Well, a start would be to have someone who can admit that there are some parameters. 

What parameters are listed in the First Amendment?


Much of the success of the Bush Administration and its unprecedented thievery is now open for examination, but an impelling force used to avoid appropriate investigation has been the wearing of the holy mantle of the base Christians.

From everything from watching politicians fold, pundits treading very carefully to posters in political clubs on the internet becoming blank and near appoplexic when the authority of religious concerns in political matters are raised, one can see just how much clout this spun sanctimony possesses, or did possess.

Hopefully, while this administration is dissected legally and discredits and indictments are determined, America will finally become cognizant of how pretentious religious sanctimony can be so successfully utilized by political spin machines.

Let us look at our religions with a fresh, objective eye, ignoring the subtle conditionings that have stultified our thinking by sublimal guilt plants, remembering that while religious freedom is essential, the metaphysics of some of these bumpkin creations are silly beyond the pale, are often nothing more than money scams, and have actively contributed to the divisiveness of this country like no other force. 

Not saying they cannot exist--just saying that the mere fact that they claim fame to Jesus does not qualify them to be regarded as gospel. 






As I stated in my post, "Not saying they cannot exist . . ."

My point was not that they should be shredded by legal terms.

But your question is here addressed:

"The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from governmental interference.

. . .

Two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion.  The establishment clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferrring one religion over another.  It enforces the "separation of church and state.(sic ".) Some governmental activcity related to religion has been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court.  For example, providing bus transporation for parochial school students and the enforcment of "blue laws" is not prohibited.  The free exercise clause prohibits the government, in most instances, from interfering with a persons practice of their religion. 

The most basic component of freedom of expression is the right of freedom of speech.  The right to freedom of speech allows individuals to express themselves without interference or constraint by the government.  The Supreme Court requires the government to provide substantial justification for the interference with the right of free speech where it attempts to regulate the content of the speech.  A less stringent test is applied for content-neutral legislation.  The Supreme Court has also recognized that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a BREACH OF THE PEACE or CAUSE VIOLENCE.  The righy to free speech includes other mediums of expression that communicates a menssage. 

. . .

The right to assemble allows people to gather for PEACEFUL AND LAWFUL PURPOSES.  Implicit within this right is the right to association and belief.  The Supreme Court has expressly recognized that a right to freedom of associatrion and belief is implicit in the First, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments.  THIS IMPLICIT RIGHT IS LIMITED TO THE RIGHT TO ASSOCIATE FOR FIRST AMENDMENT PURPOSES ONLY.  It does not include a right of social association.  The government may prohibit people from knowingly associating in groups that ENGAGE AND PROMOTE ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES.   The right to associate also prohibits the government from requiring a group to register or disclose its members or from denying government benefits on the basis of an individuals current or past membership in a particular group.  There are exceptions to this rule where the Court finds that governmental interests in disclosure/registration outweigh interference with first amendment rights.  The government may also, generally, not compel indiviuals to express themselves, hold certain beliefs, or belong to particular associations or groups."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/First_amendment



Nothing in my post suggested that the government step in.  I merely hoped that a new breed of preachers step forth and confront some of the religions who are using faux and quasi-faux tools of their religion to promote one political party over another.  There are laws, for instance, that preclude preachers from doing just that, as in the case of providing voting lists.

But they do that.

Some of these preachers can step their way through a legal minefield as well as career criminals.   

As I tried to suggest in my post, this task should be accomplished by other preachers who challenge the political involvement of some of their peers.

The case of Tom DeLay is pertinent here.  Was he not indicted for using the faith to raise big bucks?

Beyond what the legal establishment now provides for protection of the people from criminal activity in a religion or if legislation does not exist to prohibit specific and timely transgressions regarding specificl legal transgressions, there is nothing in the Constitution that would prohibit establishing new laws addressing these criminal activities which operate under the banner of religion.

I can think of a whole bunch of transgressions accomplished by today's Christian base.

Randall Terry should, for instance, face charges for his rhetoric during the Schaivo Circus (the one where Bill Frist done himself in forever in politics), wherein his remarks could easily disclose calls to violence and calling for ignoring established law.

 

Amianthus

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Re: Targeting militias
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2007, 06:50:20 PM »
The case of Tom DeLay is pertinent here.  Was he not indicted for using the faith to raise big bucks?

Didn't realize that credit cards were based on faith.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)