To war, or not to war......that is the question

[Michael Tee]

<<In my country we cannot tolerate a level of arsenic in tap water that is suffecient to cause two deaths per century.>>

Yeah?  Planning on nuking the polluters anytime soon?

[Plane]

You're an American citizen, right?  So if I were you, I wouldn't make such a huge fuss about bribery and corruption at the UN.  There are a lot of institutions that are just as corrupt as the U.N. and I'm sure that you're personally familiar with quite a few of them.  Trust me, you really don't want to go there.

The US Congress is 1/126 as corrupt as is the UN.

The NYPD is 2/1857 as corrupt as the UN.

[Plane]

<<In my country we cannot tolerate a level of arsenic in tap water that is suffecient to cause two deaths per century.>>

Yeah?  Planning on nuking the polluters anytime soon?

No polluters are involved , the natural water that the Apache thrived on for centurys must be proactively treated untill it is safer than safe before the public can tolerate it.

[Michael Tee]

<<The US Congress is 1/126 as corrupt as is the UN.

<<The NYPD is 2/1857 as corrupt as the UN.>>

Alright.  I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked, but . . .

Where do those numbers come from?

[Plane]

<<The US Congress is 1/126 as corrupt as is the UN.

<<The NYPD is 2/1857 as corrupt as the UN.>>

Alright.  I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked, but . . .

Where do those numbers come from?

They are supported with the same stuff by which you maintain that the UN is even slightly more trustworthy than any US government agency , pure steam.

[Michael Tee]

<<They are supported with the same stuff by which you maintain that the UN is even slightly more trustworthy than any US government agency . . . >>

Oh, really?  Let's see:  Abscam, Savings & Loan, Enron, Pagegate, Jack Abramoff, Watergate, Duke Cunningham, Sherman Adams, Dan Rostenkowski, Ken Keating . . .

Now, let's see how many U.N. scandals we can think of:  uhhh, Oil for Food;  uh, lessee, Oil for Food, mmmm, Oil for Food, Oil for Food . . ., hey count your fingers after shaking hands at the U.N., those guys are baaaaadass.

[Plane]

<<They are supported with the same stuff by which you maintain that the UN is even slightly more trustworthy than any US government agency . . . >>

Oh, really?  Let's see:  Abscam, Savings & Loan, Enron, Pagegate, Jack Abramoff, Watergate, Duke Cunningham, Sherman Adams, Dan Rostenkowski, Ken Keating . . .

Now, let's see how many U.N. scandals we can think of:  uhhh, Oil for Food;  uh, lessee, Oil for Food, mmmm, Oil for Food, Oil for Food . . ., hey count your fingers after shaking hands at the U.N., those guys are baaaaadass.

It is not enough that the biggest bribe in recorded history is the oil for food scandal?
Ok then add the sex for UN personell in the Congo , the "protection" of Bonians and he mountain of petty crime tat the diploats get away with in NYNY.


This is just off the top of my head , I think a bit of digging woud find lots more.

The UN has a brbetastic reputation  .

[sirs]

My apologies in not dealing with this earlier, as Js properly was trying to address the original query to this thread, so I'm compelled to answer in kind (Still waiting for Miss Henny to jump back in)

Let's pretend for a moment that Bush is right, and everything he said about Saddam's WMD was accurate, based on what his intel told him AT THE TIME.  If that were the case, was it a good enough reason for going into Iraq?

No. It was an unjust war regardless of the outcome.

So, American President Js, just having lost 3000 American lives lost at the near snap of a finger, having this intel, corroborated by nearly every other country's intel agency, you just sit, and hope to God no AlQeada folks get their hands on some suitcases of Sarin, cannisters of mustard gas, viles and viles of Botulinum toxin?  Really?

It is amazing to me that even after Vietnam and Iraq, that Americans are still wrapped in this myth of invincibility and continual underestimation of their opponents and complete misunderstanding of foreign societies and cultures. Don't be so sure that bomb tonnage and the power of the US Air Force (and more likely Navy) is going to cripple Iran so easily. Don't be so sure that the Iranians cannot withstand warfare probably far better than Americans.

I'm sure any country, NOT under overt oppressive dictator rule, won't be willing to be invaded, and would fight back.  Are you, and like minds. trying to claim, that despite Bush's constant referencing  ofno planned military action against assets in Iran, you're convinced that's precisely what is going to happen?

[Michael Tee]

<<Ok then add the sex for UN personell in the Congo  . . . >>

Ooooh, sex scandals - - I didn't know you wanted to talk about sex scandals or I would have thrown some of them into the mix - - let's see, the PageGate scandal (ooops, I DID throw that in,) the TailHook scandal, the various rapes within the U.S. military hushed up over the years, Bill Clinton's impeachment-worthy BJ, and as I'm sure all you good conservatives fervently believe, TrooperGate.  I don't know, I'm just getting started, but I think the U.S. government can match the UN (or any other government in the world) sex scandal for sex scandal.  Bad move, plane.

How does "sex for UN personnel in the Congo" compare with the rape and murder of a 14-year-old girl in Iraq and the murder of her family?  Was it just a few bad apples in the UN and a characteristic act typical of the whole force in the U.S. military, or do you want to make that the work of a few bad apples in the U.S. military and acts characteristic of the whole UN force in the Congo?  Tough call, eh plane?  But it always gets embarrassing when the pot starts to call the kettle black, doesn't it?

 <<the "protection" of Bonians >>

unheard of in all the military history of all the world, I presume.  Guys with guns charging for protection during civil war.  Who woulda thunk?

<<and he mountain of petty crime tat the diploats get away with in NYNY.>>

Wow a whole MOUNTAIN?  I had no idea.  Unpaid parking tickets.  A phenomenon previously unknown in the U.S.A. till these scofflaw furriners brought it with them.  SHOPLIFTING, never known to have afflicted U.S. diplomats anywhere on earth, because the U.S.A. is the most honest country on the planet.  Kleptomania a foreign disease even with a foreign name.  What is this mountain anyway?  Any idea how many UN diplomats there are in the Big Apple and what percentage tickets if they were suddenly granted diplomatic immunity?  New Yorkers aren't stupid, plane, and neither are international diplomats.


<<This is just off the top of my head , I think a bit of digging woud find lots more.>>

Yeah, ditto for the U.S.A., plane.  I think the UN would come off pretty well against them when you add it all up.

<<The UN has a brbetastic reputation>>

That's in stark contrast with the squeaky-clean reputation of the U.S. government we have all come to know and love. 

[_JS]

So, American President Js, just having lost 3000 American lives lost at the near snap of a finger, having this intel, corroborated by nearly every other country's intel agency, you just sit, and hope to God no AlQeada folks get their hands on some suitcases of Sarin, cannisters of mustard gas, viles and viles of Botulinum toxin?  Really?

I could not, in good conscience, send American (or any) soldiers into an unjust war. There is no justification for a "preventive" war. Saddam Hussein did not attack the World Trade Center. There were other methods available to fight al-Qaeda

I'm sure any country, NOT under overt oppressive dictator rule, won't be willing to be invaded, and would fight back.  Are you, and like minds. trying to claim, that despite Bush's constant referencing  ofno planned military action against assets in Iran, you're convinced that's precisely what is going to happen?

Not at all. I was referencing Plane's post that discussed specifically the bombing of Iran.

[BT]

Mikey,

The UN's perception of corruption and ineffectiveness should stand alone.

Either it has a history of corruption or it doesn't.

Either the charges are true or they aren't.

If the charges are true, the focus should be on fixing the problem, not some comparative minimalization to mask the flaws.

You have faith in the UN. Admit its flaws and propose ways to make it better.

[Michael Tee]

You made a lot of sense, BT.  I just sensed a lot of hypocrisy in the complaints about UN corruption.  These are from people who hate the UN for its perceived anti-Americanism and its failure to rubber-stamp every US initiative, who seized upon corruption on the "any stick to beat a dog" theory.  I was only trying to demonstrate the hypocrisy.

Of course the UN needs to clean up its act and I'm sorry if that post was taken as a defence of UN corruption.  The only things I minimised were the Bosnian protection racket which can't be allowed to be repeated and the "mountain of petty crime" in NYC, which is a characteristic of any large diplomatic body in any place where there are laws to be broken.  I shouldn't have minimized the Bosnian protection racket but that NYC thing, it's really inevitable.

[BT]

How would you change the charter of the UN to make it more effective?

[sirs]

So, American President Js, just having lost 3000 American lives lost at the near snap of a finger, having this intel, corroborated by nearly every other country's intel agency, you just sit, and hope to God no AlQeada folks get their hands on some suitcases of Sarin, cannisters of mustard gas, viles and viles of Botulinum toxin?  Really?

I could not, in good conscience, send American (or any) soldiers into an unjust war.

That wasn't the question.  In the scnerio given you, there is no war, justified or not.  There's 911, and there's the intel on your desk.  So, what you're saying is you sit, pray, and hope to God those AlQeada folks aren't able to drum up a deal to get their hands on a few hundreds poids of Sarin, right?

Are you, and like minds. trying to claim, that despite Bush's constant referencing  ofno planned military action against assets in Iran, you're convinced that's precisely what is going to happen?

Not at all. I was referencing Plane's post that discussed specifically the bombing of Iran.

So, you're just debating military tactics in general?  ok, fair enough

[_JS]

That wasn't the question.  In the scnerio given you, there is no war, justified or not.  There's 911, and there's the intel on your desk.  So, what you're saying is you sit, pray, and hope to God those AlQeada folks aren't able to drum up a deal to get their hands on a few hundreds poids of Sarin, right?

I don't recall saying that.

There are justifiable reasons to retaliate against al Qaeda.

So, you're just debating military tactics in general?  ok, fair enough

More the ramifications of making military decisions without foresight into the political realities of the region, but yeah, we weren't discussing any eminent war to my knowledge.