Author Topic: Down with Creationism!  (Read 8486 times)

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Henny

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Down with Creationism!
« on: February 10, 2007, 07:12:15 PM »
Christian faith in the other good book
12:56 10 February 2007
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11145-christian-faith-in-the-iotheri-good-book.html

Flocks of the Christian faithful in the US will this Sunday hold special services celebrating Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. The idea is to stand up to creationism, which claims the biblical account of creation is literally true, and which is increasingly being promoted under the guise of "intelligent design". Proponents of ID say the universe is so complex it must have been created by some unnamed designer.

Support for "Evolution Sunday" has grown 13 per cent to 530 congregations this year, from the 467 that celebrated the inaugural event last year. Organisers see it as increasing proof that Christians are comfortable with evolution.

"For far too long, strident voices, in the name of Christianity, have been claiming that people must choose between religion and modern science," says Michael Zimmerman, founder of Evolution Sunday and dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Butler University in Indianapolis. "We're saying you can have your faith, and you can also have science."

Zimmerman and his backers believe the biblical account of creation is allegorical. "Creationists fear that if you believe evolution, you're an atheist," he says. But for Zimmerman, attempts to try and "ratify God's existence" through intelligent design signify lack of faith. "If you have enough faith, you don't need science to prove God exists, and science can't prove this anyway," he says.

The event arose from the Clergy Letter Project, a pro-evolution letter signed in 2004 by 10,500 Christian clergy. It is spreading internationally, and this year will also be celebrated in Australia, the UK, Canada and Nigeria. Seven publishers are donating material for the services.

Michael Tee

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 11:42:27 PM »
Stay tuned for next week's show, when Christians discover that the earth is a sphere.  (just kidding)

Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 02:57:02 AM »
Christian faith in the other good book
12:56 10 February 2007
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11145-christian-faith-in-the-iotheri-good-book.html

 Proponents of ID say the universe is so complex it must have been created by some unnamed designer.
Quote

This is what they say?
 No ,complexity does not prove much , a mere collection of simplicities can produce complexity , rather it is the interdependence of and homeostasis of ,the dynamic systems that comprise life that are evidence of an organizing force , does it help to rephrase an argument you don't agree with in overly simplistic terms? Or does his author not consider the argument of IT worthy of further remark? Or perhaps he just doesn't"get " it?


Support for "Evolution Sunday" has grown 13 per cent to 530 congregations this year, from the 467 that celebrated the inaugural event last year. Organizers see it as increasing proof that Christians are comfortable with evolution.


Sure we are.
Most of us see evolution as a fact , as I do myself , but as a believer in the US Constitution I do not  acknowledge the governments right to determine what is good and proper to teach children as being above the right of a child's parents.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 07:50:30 AM »
Most of us see evolution as a fact , as I do myself , but as a believer in the US Constitution I do not  acknowledge the governments right to determine what is good and proper to teach children as being above the right of a child's parents.
=====================================================================
So parents, according to you, have an absolute right to teach their children whatever they wish: creationism, flat Earthism, or perhaps that the South won the Civil War? Do they have a right to teach them that pi is exactly 3?

Can they teach them that 2 + 2 =5? That babies come from under cabbage leaves, or are brought by storks?

It their a limit to the lies that parents have a right to teach their children, or do you draw the line at Bible-based crap?
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Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 12:04:03 PM »
Most of us see evolution as a fact , as I do myself , but as a believer in the US Constitution I do not  acknowledge the governments right to determine what is good and proper to teach children as being above the right of a child's parents.
=====================================================================
So parents, according to you, have an absolute right to teach their children whatever they wish: creationism, flat Earthism, or perhaps that the South won the Civil War? Do they have a right to teach them that pi is exactly 3?

Can they teach them that 2 + 2 =5? That babies come from under cabbage leaves, or are brought by storks?

It their a limit to the lies that parents have a right to teach their children, or do you draw the line at Bible-based crap?

I do not think that my posiion reduces to absurdity as eisily as yours does.

Do you think that the Govenment should have the right to teach the children of America its own standard of truth no matter what the parents think?
You can't think of even one thing that the government thinks is true that you do not?
What ever that is ,you want your child to be graded on how well she disagees with you?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 08:58:05 PM by Plane »

Lanya

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 06:40:14 PM »
This is Good News. ;-)

"Most of us see evolution as a fact , as I do myself...."
Then you'd get an earful from an Assembly of God pastor.  They taught that only people who were not Christians believed in evolution.   People who believed in evolution were worshipers of Satan.  I never realized that people in this day and age thought like that.   
 Believe in evolution? THen you can't possibly believe in Christianity because you have to believe in each and every word of the Bible literally...according to their view.

Thank goodness I don't see it that way.
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Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 07:10:47 PM »
This is Good News. ;-)

"Most of us see evolution as a fact , as I do myself...."
Then you'd get an earful from an Assembly of God pastor.  They taught that only people who were not Christians believed in evolution.   People who believed in evolution were worshipers of Satan.  I never realized that people in this day and age thought like that.   
 Believe in evolution? THen you can't possibly believe in Christianity because you have to believe in each and every word of the Bible literally...according to their view.

Thank goodness I don't see it that way.

No one at all takes every word of the Bible absolutely literally ,to do so would make the Song of Solomon into gibberish.

         I was once asked to stand for election as Decon in an Assembly of God Church.

        It was a good church and I was glad to be a member active in some of its programs , but I demurred for issues unrelated to this one.

      Evoluion strikes me as one of the issues covered by Pauls vision of the decending table loaded with forbidden food It is more important that the people learn of Christ than that they never eat an Eel  ,so do we really need to insist that we all understand the scriptures in a stadard way down to every little detal? Is Genesis so much more important than Leviticus that we are excused to insist that we agree on Eve being a rib of Adams literally ,while we discuss it over a steaming plate of ribs of pork?

       Everything one needs really to be a Christian is in any one of the Gosphels and is presented in condensed form in the Letter to the Romans, the rest of the Bilble is there for good reason ,but that reason is not  division and conflict.

      I know ,some Creationists and some Evolutionistas get carried away with the idea that it is not possible that the mighty "I" could be wrong about anything.

      So they push against MY right to be wrong about somthing.

     There has to be a limit to the governments right to force a law abideing citizen to do things he doesn't like ,or insist on beleifs being taught to children.

      I do not mind that Evolution be taught in a comparitive religion class or something but to present it as uncontravertable to children of people who do not agree, is a crass imposition on the rights of a citizen.

yellow_crane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 08:35:27 PM »
Christian faith in the other good book
12:56 10 February 2007
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11145-christian-faith-in-the-iotheri-good-book.html

Flocks of the Christian faithful in the US will this Sunday hold special services celebrating Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. The idea is to stand up to creationism, which claims the biblical account of creation is literally true, and which is increasingly being promoted under the guise of "intelligent design". Proponents of ID say the universe is so complex it must have been created by some unnamed designer.

Support for "Evolution Sunday" has grown 13 per cent to 530 congregations this year, from the 467 that celebrated the inaugural event last year. Organisers see it as increasing proof that Christians are comfortable with evolution.

"For far too long, strident voices, in the name of Christianity, have been claiming that people must choose between religion and modern science," says Michael Zimmerman, founder of Evolution Sunday and dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Butler University in Indianapolis. "We're saying you can have your faith, and you can also have science."

Zimmerman and his backers believe the biblical account of creation is allegorical. "Creationists fear that if you believe evolution, you're an atheist," he says. But for Zimmerman, attempts to try and "ratify God's existence" through intelligent design signify lack of faith. "If you have enough faith, you don't need science to prove God exists, and science can't prove this anyway," he says.

The event arose from the Clergy Letter Project, a pro-evolution letter signed in 2004 by 10,500 Christian clergy. It is spreading internationally, and this year will also be celebrated in Australia, the UK, Canada and Nigeria. Seven publishers are donating material for the services.




It is fitting that it be Christians that confront the Christian Right.

After all, since the high-sheen sanctimony of religion was worn like a cloak  to work like armor by the Christian Right (which is politically fascist)--thus always partially if not entirely voiding ciriticism--it only logically concludes that criticism must come from Christians in order to riddle that armor. 

These common, non-zealot Christians know all the words and know all the scriptures, and cannot be shamed by the cherry-picking use of them by the Far Right.  They cannot be shamed away with a derisive Falwell sneer.  It is an intracorporate affair.  The field is level.

This is all about eight or ten years late for the Christians to pick up the mantle(earlier, if you were a student of tracking this phenomenon known as the new evangelical movement.)

Every Christian, and certainly every professionally collared Christian shall have to answer the question--'where were you when the foundation was laid.'

I posted for eight years about the political intrigue, the political power contained in this Christian movement, but all I ever got back was how I was attacking their--the post readers--"faith."  This common chickenshit reaction came from both  . . . er  . . . at least three sides of the aisle in here.

In the history of such things, this Christian movement, this created, Far Right political machine will go down as an brilliant construct, with strong powers manipulated to achieve political success (power), effective beyond the ken of all those who simply sat there in their head like a bump, answering a call of being shamed into submission by the shaking nanny finger of Evangelical America. 

Psychologically, it was and still is brilliant.



And those who think they are gone?



In watching various serious coverage by media news specials, one hour shows, about these Christians--a few things are clear:

--they are not going to separate themselves from your society, they already have.

--looking from a sputnik with the proper lens filter, this would look like a completedly divided country.  This would be no distortion.  True, not divided in half, but divided.

--They have constructed a new world for themselves by disengaging and inventing their own science, medicine, entertainment, music, science, psychology . . . just about all the pigeonhole concrete staples that constitute a culture.

Not to mention the intellectual insult that they have proffered up as substitute.

If you can't see what's coming, you don't deserve to.

 

Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 09:03:32 PM »
Quote
.............--looking from a sputnik with the proper lens filter, this would look like a completedly divided country.  This would be no distortion.  True, not divided in half, but divided.

........Not to mention the intellectual insult that they have proffered up as substitute.

Is the answer to this teaching their Children better?

BT

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 09:32:47 PM »
Quote
It their a limit to the lies that parents have a right to teach their children, or do you draw the line at Bible-based crap?

Plane raises a very interesting question, does the government under current interpretation of the first amendment, have the right or the authority to show favoritism to one religious belief over another?

Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 10:20:50 PM »
Quote
It their a limit to the lies that parents have a right to teach their children, or do you draw the line at Bible-based crap?

Plane raises a very interesting question, does the government under current interpretation of the first amendment, have the right or the authority to show favoritism to one religious belief over another?


Gee... I wish I had said that.

BT

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 10:45:29 PM »
Quote
Gee... I wish I had said that.

I think you did.


Lanya

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 11:33:16 PM »
Evolution belongs in the teaching of biology and science.  It is not a religion, and should not be taught as a part of a religion class.

Crane, here's a place that discusses what you're talking about.  Talk to Action. 
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/8/04932/02745   

This is a post by Joe Bageant about the Left Behind series.
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Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2007, 01:03:29 AM »
Evolution belongs in the teaching of biology and science.  It is not a religion, and should not be taught as a part of a religion class.

Crane, here's a place that discusses what you're talking about.  Talk to Action. 
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/8/04932/02745   

This is a post by Joe Bageant about the Left Behind series.


Why should your definition of religion be accepted?

sirs

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2007, 02:38:29 AM »
Quote
It their a limit to the lies that parents have a right to teach their children, or do you draw the line at Bible-based crap?

Plane raises a very interesting question, does the government under current interpretation of the first amendment, have the right or the authority to show favoritism to one religious belief over another?

I noticed no one has tackled this question yet.  I wonder why.  Too politically incorrect?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:37:11 PM by sirs »
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