SATW Ucrane

[Plane]

http://satwcomic.com/

A European perspective on Ukraine.



    Check out the comments, this comic attracts some very well spoken posters, this time from both sides of a war.

   And a few Trolls of course.

http://satwcomic.com/surprise-party#comments

neironet

28 F


2 hours ago #9238580         

 @Jonas_Hrafnagil
 >>I am curios of what you think of your current government.

 Ok, about current government. Personally I think that it didn't change that much since the Maidan - and this is actually the fault of war. Our efforts are now combined about helping our warriors to survive, so we do not have time and strength left to pay enough attention to who is left in the government. If war didn't start, we would probably held Maidan until all people from Yanukovich party would leave all the governmental organizations. They are corrupted and spoiled, and it is sad to still see their faces here and there.

 But at least there are some changes to the good. For example, Poroshenko is our president now. I didn't vote for him, for me he looked like a bit dangerous person - oligarch (or at least a person with huge money and huge business). He also had a stupid old Soviet-styled election campaign. But so far he proved to be not that bad. He is not escalating conflicts, always tries to calm down everybody. He speaks good English, communicates a lot with western leaders and looks as a smart enough person. I see that he has a very difficult role now - he should behave like he is not betraying Ukrainians, and at the same time not escalating the war. This is really hard. We'll see how it goes...

 Our prime minister is Yatsenuk. The same, I didn't feel very good about him before. Most of all because when all Maidan thing was happening, he was saying very smart things when he was talking to government, but as soon as he went to talk to people on the square - his speech became a mix from slogans and stereotypes. It felt like he perceives Ukrainians as a stupid crowd, was a bit offending to me. But anyway... looks like somebody told him that this is the only way to talk to the crowd.
 But now Yatsenuk is a prime minister. And I can say, that he is one of the smartest people we ever had in our government. He is a good economist, he really understands the problems, well-educated - again, speaks a good English and collaborates with western leaders. I think he is a very good guy to have in Ukrainian government.

 There are also several parties now, that formed during the Maidan movement, with young uncorrupted people - I'll do the best to give these parties opportunity to take seats in the government.

 We are going to have proper government elections soon, 26th of October. This is bad timing, again, because our thoughts are about the war now - but we need to do that anyway, we had only temporary government since February. But I hope that most of the people would vote for non-Yanukovich guys and we'll finally have a better government.

 One more good thing that we have after Maidan - is change in our heads. People see that if they don't like the way how things are going, they CAN actually do something. This is very important. Right after Maidan people themselves, volunteers, started a lot of good social initiatives aimed against corruption and towards better informing people about their rights. I myself participated in several IT initiatives (I'm a web-developer). So if war ends, we all hope to use the energy we obtained from Maidan to keep these initiatives going and developing.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The situation in Ukraine is more complicated than presented in the press. There is a sizable population of ethnic Russians (or people who consider themselves to be ethnic Russians) living in Ukraine. Ukraine has elected incredibly corrupt governments, both of pro Russian and pro European factions and the country is nearly bankrupt. Ukrainians during the USSR period had to learn Russian (a language very similar to Ukrainian). Russians and Ukrainians understand one another fairly easily, but to Russians, Ukrainians sound like hicks, I am told (just as rural Black and White Americans sound like hicks to Americans who speak something closer to broadcast English). When Ukraine became independent, the Russians were forced to study Ukrainian, which is rather like forcing Americans to learn "Ebonics".

Putin has taken advantage of Ukraine's governmental incompetence, and annexed Crimea, which had only a minority population of Ukrainians. I think Putin is a Russian nationalist, or acts like one because Russian nationalists are quite numerous. Neither the Russian Federation nor the other former Soviet republics have the same concept of what a national government should be that most Europeans and Americans do. 

[Plane]

 

      I am familiar with the concept of language being a separator when it is basically the same language.
      So I do not want to see a Parisian criticize a Cajun for his poor accent , if the location is New Orleans it would be the Parisian who should learn how to speak and behave appropriately.  That isn't any harder than the Cajun learning better accents when he is in Paris.

       When I visited some English speaking Caribbean Islands , I could only understand them if they spoke rather slowly, this didn't keep their songs from being beautiful to hear, and not once did I think I needed had to shoot one of them to get them to talk better.
       
      If Putin thinks that the sovereignty of Ukraine is a joke this isn't because Ukrainians are treating Russians as badly as Russian propaganda is claiming, and it is not because Putin is a Russian nationalist.

       Trumped up charges are being put forwards as excuses , some of these are laughable cock and bull stories, the excuse to do as wanted is the point.

     I expect Putin to be a Nationalist for Russia, what else would the voters of Russia want ? I don't care that he is nationalist , that he is Imperialist is more the problem, and if he gets his Sudetenland and Austria at low cost  , why would he quit being Imperialist?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Many Russian people feel that the Soviet period was the good old days.  Putin uses this sentiment to stay in power. Russians have always favored a strong leader over a just one. This is not really like Hitler and the Germans of Czechoslovakia. It is a uniquely ex-Soviet one. The similarities are fewer than the differences.

My French girlfriend lived in Quebec for six years and came to despise the Quebecois. She was from a tiny village in Burgundy and married a pied noir who had been born and raised in Algeria. First they lived in a mining village way north of Quebec City. Then they lived in Montreal, and finally, they moved to Ft Lauderdale. Her general complaint was that Quebecois were uncouth, spoke horrible French, and had no common sense at all. She told me "if you were French, you would understand". She had lots of friends of all sorts, but no French Canadians.

[Plane]

Many Russian people feel that the Soviet period was the good old days.  Putin uses this sentiment to stay in power. Russians have always favored a strong leader over a just one. This is not really like Hitler and the Germans of Czechoslovakia. It is a uniquely ex-Soviet one. The similarities are fewer than the differences.

I didn't know there were any differences at all, are you sure that there are differences? Got some in mind?

My French girlfriend lived in Quebec for six years and came to despise the Quebecois. She was from a tiny village in Burgundy and married a pied noir who had been born and raised in Algeria. First they lived in a mining village way north of Quebec City. Then they lived in Montreal, and finally, they moved to Ft Lauderdale. Her general complaint was that Quebecois were uncouth, spoke horrible French, and had no common sense at all. She told me "if you were French, you would understand". She had lots of friends of all sorts, but no French Canadians.

Was her attitude provincial?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I decided not to judge her attitude. What would be the point?

Hitler was Austrian, and Putin is Russian. Hitler was determined to conquer Europe, and Putin only seems to want to reconstruct parts of the Soviet Union. Hitler thought, as did many Germans that Germany was destined by some mystical force to rule Europe because Germans were superior to everyone and it was the natural state of things. I don't see Putin as being like that at all.

I certainly do not think that the US should get involved militarily in a dispute between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine has always been in the Russian sphere of influence. The Sudetenland Germans lived in Austria Hungary before the Treaty of Versailles, as there was no Czechoslovakia. That was a period of under 20 years (1919-1938).

[Plane]

Hitler was Austrian, and Putin is Russian.

This is more of a distinction than a diffrence.

Hitler was determined to conquer Europe, and Putin only seems to want to reconstruct parts of the Soviet Union...

I think this matches Hitler's claims at the time , almost exactly this is s similarity not a difference.

Hitler thought, as did many Germans that Germany was destined by some mystical force to rule Europe because Germans were superior to everyone and it was the natural state of things. I don't see Putin as being like that at all...

Putin and Russians in general are not mystic? Don't feel threatened by the lesser world? Don't feel entitled to empire?  Again I disagree that this is much different, I am wondering what are the natural borders of Greater Russia?

I certainly do not think that the US should get involved militarily in a dispute between Ukraine and Russia.

We probably won't until we are out of other choices.

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

Winston Churchill


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu135259.html#DZkbxWGeSx4hOwoj.99

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am sick of hearing crap from Churchill. He was a militaristic, aristocratic snob. Annoying as only a British aristocrat can be. At least two continents were settled by people trying to escape from overbearing snobs like Churchill. He was useful for five years and annoying for seventy.
 
Winston Churchill said as many stupid things as intelligent ones.
Gallipoli was stupid enough to make up for a lifetime of brilliant quips.

Again, no American should die fighting over the borders of Greater Russia. We know that they do not include any American territory, and that is okay by me.

If the Europeans want to shiver through a winter without Russian gas, they have it in their power to wreck Putin.

[Plane]

Again, no American should die fighting over the borders of Greater Russia. We know that they do not include any American territory, and that is okay by me.

Alaska

If the Europeans want to shiver through a winter without Russian gas, they have it in their power to wreck Putin.

That is a good point.

Can the US send enough fracking equipment and LPG to Europe to fuel European industry and homes  for a couple of years?

  Everyone should prefer a solution that reduces the requirement for force and violence.

[Xavier_Onassis]

For fracking to work,there has to be oil or gas under the ground, and if it inevitably poisons the water table, then you have a worse problem than allowing Putin to dominate Donesk.

The US cannot send fracking equipment. It has none. Oil COMPANIES have this. do not confuse greedhead oil companies with anything that has a humanitarian purpose. They could care bloody less about humanitarian purposes. They are not patriotic, and they only worry about their bottom line.

The US also has no LPG tankers and European businesses will not build terminals that can only be useful until Putin decides that he no longer can consider restoring Ukraine or parts of it to Mother Russia.

I get propaganda in favor of fracking as well as against it. It seems pretty clear to me that is may make sense to some prople in some places, but it does not make sense to everyone everywhere. Fracking North Dakota where there are few people is one thing: fracking the seabed off the coast of Miami is another, and is a terrible idea.