Author Topic: Has anyone else noticed...  (Read 11113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2007, 01:53:00 PM »
<<Of course these facts aren't really facts, right Tee?>>

No, they're facts, but they're not the whole story. 

Well, we did get a small victory there


The issue is the justification for the war on Iraq

No, actually, this is specific to how certain folks in on the UN Security council, with absolute veto power, could easily be seen as why they impeded any attempt thru the UN to bring Iraq into full compliance, and in reality, had a vested (read; $$$$ interest) for the status quo to remain.  THAT was the issue in your latest query, regarding the UN and their failure to act in any way, shape or form
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2007, 03:01:45 PM »
<<Of course these facts aren't really facts, right Tee? >>

They might be facts, but even if they are, it is EXACTLY as I suspected - - meaningless factoids, with nothing to compare them to, to give any meaning or significance.  Only a moron would conclude, on the basis of the facts as stated, that economic interests would persuade even France to take the positions they did regarding a proposed American motion in the Security Council.

I am referring to Ami's article, to which he was kind enough to post the link.  I'm sure that sirs' book is just another crock of the same shit, but let's look at Ami's "source," which like most of his other garbage turns out to be the same misbegotten collection of factoids and half-truths proving absolutely nothing.  Actually, the stupidity of quoting this article in support of their moronic positions is hilarious, because it actually shows you in some detail why America would want to invade this country.

First of all, if you read between the lines of the article, you see that the country with the biggest economic motive to invade the fucking country is the U.S.A. - -  America not only relies on Iraq for $3.5 BILLION worth of its oil in one single year, 2002, but has to buy the stuff through middlemen, which obviously would cost substantially more.  France, by contrast, bought $3.1 billion SINCE 1996 under the oil-for-food program.  As a consumer of Iraqi oil, France is a piker compared to the U.S.A.

Germany, another country which these geniuses claim votes only its "economic self-interest" at the Security Council when Iraq is concerned, does a lordly "350 million" business annually with Iraq.  Plus a "reported" billion through third parties, as meaningless an estimate as could be imagined in the circumstances.  Germany is the second largest exporting nation in the world - - $350 million would represent a piss in the ocean as far as their overall balance of trade is concerned.

The foreign debt figures were equally hilarious - - while Iraq owes France an "estimated" $6 billion in foreign debt, and Germany "billions" [that's it - - "billions;" $2 billion or $999 billion, that's for YOU to figure out,] there are absolutely no figures at all regarding the foreign debt owed to the U.S. by Iraq.

The rest of the article is just a frantically-compiled mish-mash of the News from Nowhere - - a $2 million contract for cable here, a $70 million contract for auto parts there - - stuff that naturally has absolutely zero in terms of meaningful economic significance - - what percent of France's, Germany's or Russia's foreign trade is represented by Iraq, how do all the numbers compare with the U.S.A. and what of the other countries that also, like France, Germany, Russia and China, refused to back the U.S.A., what were their trade figures?

In addition, none of this explains how come India, Canada, Belgium and scores of other countries, some big and some small, also felt that there was no need to invade Iraq despite the bullshit and lies of the Bush administration.

At the end of the day, the article succeeded in convincing me that all the countries named did business with Iraq in one form or another, for greater or lesser amounts, and that of all of them, the U.S. seemed to have the greatest economic incentive to invade Iraq since it not only bought by far the biggest amounts of oil from them but also was forced to buy through middlemen, which would substantially have increased the price - - an inconvenience which could be solved neatly by taking over the wells directly and reaping enormous benefits not only through the elimination of the middleman but also by being able to dictate the price of the product directly to the Iraqi "government" at the point of a gun.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 03:12:22 PM by Michael Tee »

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2007, 03:10:36 PM »
France, by contrast, bought $3.1 billion SINCE 1996 under the oil-for-food program.  As a consumer of Iraqi oil, France is a piker compared to the U.S.A.

Of course, completely glossing over the worth of the contract in the future after sanctions would have been eliminated - $650billion based on 2002 oil prices (triple it for current prices). Control by a French corporation of 25% of one of the largest oil fields in the world is something for the French government to be interested in preserving.

Ditto for a few of your other points.

Like I said, you ignore anything that contradicts you.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2007, 03:23:47 PM »
<<Of course, completely glossing over the worth of the contract in the future after sanctions would have been eliminated - $650billion based on 2002 oil prices (triple it for current prices). Control by a French corporation of 25% of one of the largest oil fields in the world is something for the French government to be interested in preserving.>>

Using your "logic" every contract in every country has to be multiplied by the same factor to go from 2002 prices to today's prices.  If it were such a big deal to the French government, I'm sure they'd hedge their bets in some way either by selling off part of ELF to the U.S.A. or more specifically to the Bush administration's special friends in the business and/or by finding some way to be more accommodating to the U.S.A. which showed at least some potential for following through on its threats. 

France was actually the strongest part of the article claiming economic self-interest as motive, and even there France's economic self-interest paled beside that of the U.S.A.  The rest of it was pathetic.  With of course zero data by which any meaningful evaluation of the data presented could have been performed.  ("$650 million?  Uh geeze that seems like lots and lots of money. . . . is it more than a gazillion?")

As usual, your "evidence" turns out to be a crock of shit.  I'm sure though that you 'll complain about my "arrogance" in rejecting it.  Find another sucker if you hope to persuade anyone with this garbage.  Which I note was published in the Washington Times, the Moonie paper - - or was that the book excerpt that sirs was referring to?  My apologies to one of you.  Know what GiGo stands for?  Garbage in, garbage out.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2007, 03:28:41 PM »
France, by contrast, bought $3.1 billion SINCE 1996 under the oil-for-food program.  As a consumer of Iraqi oil, France is a piker compared to the U.S.A.

Of course, completely glossing over the worth of the contract in the future after sanctions would have been eliminated - $650billion based on 2002 oil prices (triple it for current prices). Control by a French corporation of 25% of one of the largest oil fields in the world is something for the French government to be interested in preserving.  Ditto for a few of your other points.

D'OH....Ami with another blow.  Tee's ship listing hard to port

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2600
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2007, 03:33:08 PM »
...that the administration has gone from 'Iran is enriching uranium to make nuclear weapons' to 'Iran is supplying weapons to the insurgents in Iraq', much the same way they went from 'Iraq has WMD's' to 'Iraq has ties to Al Qaeda'? Seems they are very good at coming up with new reasons to convince the American people we should go to war when the old reasons don't pan out.

I hope the American public, and their senators and representatives in Washington, have learned their lesson and set the bar for proof very high before deciding we should go to war in Iran.

Not only that, they do it with leaks now so they can claim they aren't saying anything like that.  Much the same way they are now blaming the Intel community for their f'up in invading Iraq.  They're goals are to do what they want and not get any of the blame.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2007, 03:34:32 PM »

Yup, ignore anything that contradicts you.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2007, 07:04:13 PM »
<<Yup, ignore anything that contradicts you.>>

Ignore?  I ripped it to shreds.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2007, 07:16:55 PM »
<<Of course, completely glossing over the worth of the contract in the future after sanctions would have been eliminated - $650billion based on 2002 oil prices (triple it for current prices). Control by a French corporation of 25% of one of the largest oil fields in the world is something for the French government to be interested in preserving.>>

Using your "logic" every contract in every country has to be multiplied by the same factor to go from 2002 prices to today's prices.  If it were such a big deal to the French government, I'm sure they'd hedge their bets in some way either by selling off part of ELF to the U.S.A. or more specifically to the Bush administration's special friends in the business and/or by finding some way to be more accommodating to the U.S.A. which showed at least some potential for following through on its threats. 

France was actually the strongest part of the article claiming economic self-interest as motive, and even there France's economic self-interest paled beside that of the U.S.A.  The rest of it was pathetic.  With of course zero data by which any meaningful evaluation of the data presented could have been performed.  ("$650 million?  Uh geeze that seems like lots and lots of money. . . . is it more than a gazillion?")

As usual, your "evidence" turns out to be a crock of shit.  I'm sure though that you 'll complain about my "arrogance" in rejecting it.  Find another sucker if you hope to persuade anyone with this garbage.  Which I note was published in the Washington Times, the Moonie paper - - or was that the book excerpt that sirs was referring to?  My apologies to one of you.  Know what GiGo stands for?  Garbage in, garbage out.



Why then is it safe to assume the same for US motives that are unproven as you refuse to beleive of French motives in which you demand stronger evidence?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2007, 07:20:39 PM »
Why then is it safe to assume the same for US motives that are unproven as you refuse to beleive of French motives in which you demand stronger evidence?

Template Plane, template
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2007, 07:24:23 PM »
<<Why then is it safe to assume the same for US motives that are unproven as you refuse to beleive of French motives in which you demand stronger evidence?>>

Actually, I said that France was the strongest part of his argument.   Maybe they did let the business side influence their UN vote.  It needs more proof but I didn't say it was impossible.

With the USA, you have a number of things that don't add up.  The elephant claims to be afraid of the mouse.  Well when the elephant is a nation of 300,000,000 with the mightiest nuclear arsenal in history and the mouse is a nation of 23,000,000 with an army that already once had its ass kicked by the U.S.A. and a leader that never risked confrontation before with the U.S., it's just what it looks like - - a bullshit excuse.  When the invasion PROVES that there was nothing to fear, new reasons are found for staying:  "bring democracy," and now when that also has been exploded, "preventing a bloodbath" (THAT from the same country that killed 2 million Vietnamese, very bloodbath-sensitive people)

I mean the endless parade of bullshit reasons, ever changing as each one is exposed for the lie that it is, plus the OBVIOUS and historically validated perfectly good single reason to invade Iraq - - holy shit, plane, what more do you want?

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2007, 07:26:55 PM »
Ignore?  I ripped it to shreds.

ROFLMAO

You only "ripped it to shreds" because you basically said it wasn't any proof.

I didn't see you contradict any of the numbers, much less provide any evidence that the numbers were wrong.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2007, 07:32:27 PM »
<<You only "ripped it to shreds" because you basically said it wasn't any proof.

<<I didn't see you contradict any of the numbers, much less provide any evidence that the numbers were wrong.>>

I don't have to say the numbers were wrong, you never gave enough to form a conclusion either way.  It's like announcing the score of the Army-Navy game as "Army 5."   

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2007, 07:42:30 PM »

..........a leader that never risked confrontation before with the U.S.......
<<


Hahahaha

Mother of all battles Saddam , are we talking about the same guy?

I think your position depends on the assumption of good sense on Saddams part.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Has anyone else noticed...
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2007, 09:36:24 PM »
I don't have to say the numbers were wrong, you never gave enough to form a conclusion either way.  It's like announcing the score of the Army-Navy game as "Army 5."   

My point was that other governments had companies with significant financial ties to Saddam's government. Hundreds of billions of dollars is significant in anybody's book - except yours, apparently. I made my point. Your "ripping it to shreds" apparently consisted of saying that US did business with them as well. A point that I never contradicted.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)