Author Topic: false positive  (Read 2492 times)

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BT

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false positive
« on: February 16, 2007, 12:37:13 AM »
Iraq and Global Warming [BRD]
Well, one of the posts has (surprisingly enough) veered off into questions about intelligence, warfighting, and preemption.  And, predictably enough, the conversation, in large part, reflects the fact that people have worn a lot of their comfortable, faded, broken-in arguments to the fight.  In general, there’s nothing wrong with that, but I’ve been thinking a bit over the last few days about stuff in general and have come to a couple of conclusions, the most important of which is this:

The Iraq War debate is, at its heart, equivalent to the arguments over Global Warming.

Both the doctrine of preemption and the reduction of carbon emissions are predicated on the assessment that in both cases, a false positive is of much, much greater consequence than a false negative, such that the downside potential of a false positive in either scenario is far too high to accept and completely overwhelms the consequences of a false negative.

Granted, this evaluation doesn’t place great emphasis on true positives and true negatives, but that’s beside the point.  In both instances, we’re using incredibly imprecise and unreliable forecasting methods, for which we can get little substantive supporting proof.  Even worse, it’s not the weaknesses of the methodologies themselves, but rather the looming specter of the “unknown unknowns” that compels close examination of the costs of incorrect outcomes.  This is because the expectation value of a risk is the likelyhood of the outcome times the consequence of the outcome, and with high variability in this case, the value of the true positives and true negatives becomes much less significant, given the way that policy debate is conducted in the US.

Now, before we get off on the particular merits of Iraq and Kyoto, let’s take a quick look at the consequences of cognitive (particularly confirmation and disconfirmation) biases.  Without getting into the hairy details of the mechanics of the biases, let us just simply note that nobody ever has as strong a grasp of political issues as the strength of their opinions would lead them to believe.  The vast majority of people have a strong command of a specific issue area, but their outlook outside of their focus tends to be more heavily informed by the projection of their own narrative framework projected onto a given set of facts.  In particular, this is manifested through cognitive bias behaviors.

At this point, many folks are going to note “Hah!  The other guys, who are axiomatically wrong about this-that-and-the-other-thing have fallen prey to some sort of cognitive bias!”

Not so fast.

What it tends to mean most often is that the positions drawn by both sides are often only loosely related to the actual issue under contention, but are simply a showcase for a preexisting set of conclusions.  In practice, the more detailed circumstances surrounding a contentious topic are almost always more complex and greyer than generally imagined.

In the case of Iraq, what it all, essentially, boils down to is that a number of reasons were given for war with Iraq (what Cynn so delightfully refers to in a similar case as “mixed messages and rhetorical moonwalking”, or as Kerry put it “nuance”).  These reasons were pretty broad and covered as many bases as possible.  However, since the debate today centers around WMD and proliferation, I’m going to restrict myself to that family of considerations.

Was Iraq in violation of the letter of the law regarding WMD?  Absolutely.

Was he substantially in violation of the spirit of the law regarding WMD?  Tough call.

Was there any way to know, short of war, whether or not the technical violation was simply the only a trace of a substantive violation that he managed to conceal?  None at all.

If you all go in the wayback machine, the crux of the debate in early 2003 was whether or not the trigger for implementation of UN 1441 was a technical or substantive violation of the resolution. (Of course, I’m not touching the other two-thirds of the argumentation of the Iraq War, despite the fact that those who have argued most loudly about Bush’s Manichean worldview and lack of nuance seem to be remarkably simplistic on causation here.)

Internationally, everyone pretty much agreed that a substantive violation merited a massive military response, while a purely technical violation (particularly one that was not in bad faith) did not require a full military response.

But, here’s the kicker.  Arms negotiations and disarmament are essentially based on the principle of “trust, but verify” – the exercise here is for the party that has given up their capability must demonstrate to the inspecting party a good faith effort on their part to remove or neutralize the capability in question.  If the disarming party is hiding something, then that is basically a failure to disarm according to the agreement – whether or not they actually have retained the capability.  It sounds odd, but it is essentially the only way to tackle the problem of “I swear to Allah, I really did give up my nuclear program, and I really, really, mean it this time.  Really!”

This then puts us in a rather odd situation.  Hussein, after the 1991 Gulf War was commanded to get rid of all of his WMD capacity.  And the west had verified, to its satisfaction that the WMD programs, in particular, the nuclear program had been gotten rid of.  However, once a Hussein son-in-law skipped the country and dropped the dime on Hussein, the west discovered that there was a huge capability that had not been turned over and had been concealed.

So folks went around and inspected and verified and did all that kind of stuff, but Iraq couldn’t at any point, ever bring themselves to come completely clean.  If we fast forward to 1998, the west was still certain he had something up his sleeve.  If we then go all the way to the UN Clusters Working Document, Iraq still hadn’t come completely clean.  They were still found in violation of UN resolutions.

So, the only way on earth that Iraq could have been in compliance with requirements is if they went off, scrapped all their kit, lied about it, didn’t tell anyone, and destroyed all the records.  This, as it turns out, seems to be pretty close to what happened – although it will be another couple decades before the rest of that story plays out.

But, to turn this around, did it make any sense, whatsoever, in any way shape or form, to go to war over a clerical mistake?  Clearly not.

But to turn it a bit further, we had no way of verifying it to be a clerical error, given the behavior of the actors at the time, short of war.

So the question of WMD really boils down to how one chooses to manage the consequences of a false negative versus the downside potential of a false positive.

Kind of like the Global Warming debate.

So, now that we’ve looked at two cases of managing downside risk potential for false positives and false negatives, does anyone have anything productive to suggest about Iran, other than doing nothing and watching from the sidelines as the worst case scenario unfolds?

http://proteinwisdom.com/index.php?/weblog/entry/22397/

Plane

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Re: false positive
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2007, 12:52:33 AM »
   So without becomeing proactive and preemptive we couldn't have known that Iraq was clean of WMD paraphenailia?

    What is proactive and preemptive in te case of global warming? Would we know that we had done well against Global Warming if we were to destroy a few million jobs for the casue?

   Or might  we still not know?

   In Iraq we havent found the WMD we were expecting , but the certainty I would lke to have is still elusive.

sirs

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Re: false positive
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2007, 01:42:51 AM »
So without becomeing proactive and preemptive we couldn't have known that Iraq was clean of WMD paraphenailia?

That's what I've been saying all along.  The naysayers will claim that inspectors would have eventualy come to the same conclusions.  which is indeed possible (though IMHO unlikely)  Point being that following 911, we no longer had the luxury of Saddam leading inspectors all over his country for another 12+years, while we sat on our hands, and hoped to God AlQeada didn't manage to aquire some his WMD, that the intell all said he had.

Just not a gamble I was comfortable with, and I'm glad Bush didn't take that gamble either

 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: false positive
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2007, 10:40:50 AM »
Quote
So, now that we’ve looked at two cases of managing downside risk potential for false positives and false negatives, does anyone have anything productive to suggest about Iran, other than doing nothing and watching from the sidelines as the worst case scenario unfolds?

A leading question. We can play a lot of "what if" games, but in both cases of the war on Iraq and climate change there has to be suitable evidence.

The same is true for Iran.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: false positive
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2007, 12:36:10 AM »
Point being that following 911, we no longer had the luxury of Saddam leading inspectors all over his country for another 12+years, while we sat on our hands, and hoped to God AlQeada didn't manage to aquire some his WMD, that the intell all said he had.
=====================================

Bullsh*t!

9-11 had nothing whatever to do with Iraq. It had everything to do with Olebush sticking US troops in Saudi Arabia and the Army allowing some of them to pass out Arabic Bibles.

It takes a great outrage to cause 20 people to blow themselves up. Osama was a planner and an organizer, but he was not suicidal.

9-11 was largely caused by US imperialistic designs in the US and support of Israel.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: false positive
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2007, 12:52:24 AM »
The Mandate for Palestine, while specifying actions in support of Jewish immigration and political status, stated that in the territory to the east of the Jordan River, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' those articles of the Mandate concerning a Jewish National Home. In September 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved by the League on 11 September.

sirs

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Re: false positive
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2007, 01:25:07 AM »
Point being that following 911, we no longer had the luxury of Saddam leading inspectors all over his country for another 12+years, while we sat on our hands, and hoped to God AlQeada (read, NOT Saddam or Iraq) didn't manage to aquire some of his (Saddam's) WMD, that the intell all said he had.
=====================================
Bullsh*t!  9-11 had nothing whatever to do with Iraq.

Never said it did.  Neither did Bush


It had everything to do with Olebush sticking US troops in Saudi Arabia and the Army allowing some of them to pass out Arabic Bibles.

So says you.  Facts and rhetoric say otherwise, unless you can presents some facts, besides your "obvious" mo


It takes a great outrage to cause 20 people to blow themselves up. Osama was a planner and an organizer, but he was not suicidal.

Oh, you know them and him personally?  Wow, do tell.  Oh wait, the FBI might want to talk to you first.  I'm sure he has plenty of folk willing to commit suicide for him, if that means anything to you


9-11 was largely caused by US imperialistic designs in the US and support of Israel.

Of course, "obviously" it's America's fault       ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: false positive
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2007, 04:33:16 PM »
=====================================
9-11 had nothing whatever to do with Iraq. It had everything to do with Olebush sticking US troops in Saudi Arabia and the Army .....



Wasn't our isolation of Iraq the origional reason for theAmerican bases in Saudi Arabia?

Seems you are saying here that Osama Bn Ladens ire was the result of the Iraq situation.



To me the connection between 9-11 and and Iraq is that we were already fightng Saddam when Osama came up and kicked us in the behind.

When you are fighting one guy and another one joins in the connectinn between the two is you.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: false positive
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2007, 04:47:23 PM »
Oh, you know them and him personally?  Wow, do tell.  Oh wait, the FBI might want to talk to you first.  I'm sure he has plenty of folk willing to commit suicide for him, if that means anything to you
======================================================================
If Osama bin Laden had been suicidal, he would have committed suicide already.

The 20 odd hijackers were obviously outraged to have committed suicide.
It was not necessary to put any troops in Saudi Arabia in order to isolate Iraq. Very shortly after 9-11, the US withdrew all personnel from Saudia Arabia and reinstalled them in Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and the UAE, where they could have been stationed all along.

The Koran has always said "There shall not be two religions in Arabia". Saudia Arabia has always considered itself to be the guardian of Mecca and the enfporcer of the directives in the Koran, and this should have been more than well known to Olebush's State Department.

9-11 was a payback for US intervention in Arabia, and support for Israel. This is true even if you do not choose to recognize it.

Juniorbush and you have always blathered stupidly about connections between 9-11 and the need to invade Iraq. And you have both always been full of crap.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: false positive
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2007, 06:26:32 PM »
If Osama bin Laden had been suicidal, he would have committed suicide already.

Why this rant on if Usama is suicidal or not.  What does that have to do with anything being said.  In fact the point I referenced, is that there are plenty of folks willing to be suicidal for him.


The 20 odd hijackers were obviously outraged to have committed suicide.

So says you.  You privvy to their psychiatric notes?


It was not necessary to put any troops in Saudi Arabia in order to isolate Iraq. Very shortly after 9-11, the US withdrew all personnel from Saudia Arabia and reinstalled them in Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and the UAE, where they could have been stationed all along.  The Koran has always said "There shall not be two religions in Arabia". Saudia Arabia has always considered itself to be the guardian of Mecca and the enfporcer of the directives in the Koran, and this should have been more than well known to Olebush's State Department.

What does this have to do with anything being debated in this thread??


9-11 was a payback for US intervention in Arabia, and support for Israel. This is true even if you do not choose to recognize it.

So says you.  Facts and rhetoric say otherwise, unless you can presents some facts, besides your "obvious" mo

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: false positive
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2007, 04:09:30 AM »
9-11 was a payback for US intervention in Arabia,


That is of course , the Ivasion f Iraq followed by the containment of Iraq.