Author Topic: Vladimir Putin  (Read 4512 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2014, 07:24:09 AM »
I have no real desire to engage in this topic.  There is hardly anything to it.

But Christianity is not capitalistic. "Give all you have to the poor, and follow me" is clearly NOT a capitalist attitude.

A system that allows 1% of the people to own 40% of everything while people are starving is not a Christian attitude.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2014, 12:53:02 PM »
The issue isn't that a Religious system (Christianity) is a foundation to an economic system (Capitalism), or vice versa.  You couldn't get more opposite to Christianity than Socialism, in that regards. 

No, the point that you helped inject with your pulling in Jesus, is that Christianity and Capitalism, have as their foundations, the fundamental concept of freedom.  The notion that people are free to make their own decisions, make their own mistakes, learn from them, and decide how they best want to proceed in life.  Your contribution in that regard is greatly appreciated
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 04:57:13 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2014, 08:48:41 PM »
Christianity does NOT have a tradition of freedom at all.

Perhaps you have heard of the Holy Office?

They banned books, tried heretics and burned them at the stake for centuries. Dolts like sirs think they have the right to tell a woman that she MUST bear a child.

Capitalism, is also not fond of freedom.  They are most fond of monopolies. They do not think you have the right to know if you are eating genetically modified foods. They are resisting attempts to allow the public to know the calorie count foods restaurants are serving.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2014, 09:43:24 PM »
..................think they have the right to tell a woman that she MUST bear a child.



No. No one does that.

Are you resentful that there are rules intended to prevent you from killing your neighbors?

This isn't a strictly Christian issue , it isn't reasonable to have no value on being a living human being.

    But if Christians are the most famous for having this attitude , I can be glad of it.

Plane

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2014, 09:48:54 PM »
I have no real desire to engage in this topic.  There is hardly anything to it.

But Christianity is not capitalistic. "Give all you have to the poor, and follow me" is clearly NOT a capitalist attitude.

A system that allows 1% of the people to own 40% of everything while people are starving is not a Christian attitude.


You have part of this right.
Jesus mentioned that it is more difficult for the wealthy to be righteous.

But he did not try to provoke jealousy of the wealthy , or distribute wealth by force.

He was promoting a focus of life other than amassing resources.

A truly Christian society would not be concerned about a person having higher earnings or savings, except as it might be an impediment to that persons path towards heaven.

Plane

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2014, 09:51:09 PM »
The issue isn't that a Religious system (Christianity) is a foundation to an economic system (Capitalism), or vice versa.  You couldn't get more opposite to Christianity than Socialism, in that regards. 



  Isn't it recorded that in the early days of the Christian church the members of the church pooled their resources?

sirs

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2014, 11:18:28 PM »
Christianity does NOT have a tradition of freedom at all.

Of course it does.  That's the very essence of faith.  What zealots do to try to mutate it the message, akin to what Islamofascists do with the Koran, is a whole different story.  But the utter floor to the act of being a Christian is the free will to choose to be a Christian.....or not.


Capitalism, is also not fond of freedom. 

It breathes and eschews freedom.  Freedom to be the best you can possibly be.....or not.  It's up to the individual


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 12:46:33 PM »
Capitalism favors monopolies. That is why Pfizer outperforms Bally or MGM or Trump or any casino company on the planet: they have monopoilies.

Capitalism is simply a tool. It can be a useful tool. But it is NOT a god, and worshiping it and giving it free rein means the few owning most of everything and regular booms and busts, which help the few to buy low and sell high and own even more of everything.

Christianity is certainly, in its present form, vastly better than Islam, because it has been forced to give up censorship, dominating educations, marriages and families, and nasty practices like heresy trials and burning people ate the stake.  Pope Francis is a real step in the right direction for the RC Church. I recognize that religion of some form or another is necessary for some people and that it will never vanish. Persecuting religions creates martyrs, so that is also a bad idea. I don't see any real purpose in joining some atheist society or group, because I am an agnostic until there is actual proof doe the existence or nonexistence of some deity. But I don't see the Christian/Jewish/Muslim creator deity as a being that could actually exist. Christianity is presently mostly harmless: it does some good things, and perpetrates a few bad ones as well. I don't think that there is an adequate scale for measuring  comparative amounts of good or evil in this sense, so I will leave it at that.
 
It is pretty obvious that as land creatures on  a planet mostly covered by water  on a small planet revolving around a rather normal star whirling off on the trailing end of an average galaxy that we humans are NOT the central focus of creation. We are certainly part of it, but a rather tiny part.  I really see it as quite unlikely that any species of sentient beings anywhere in the Universe is the central reason for creation. I don't see that creation has to even have a purpose. Things exist because they can exist.

An actual deity could be a creator or a moral force. I do not see that the two functions are necessarily connected. I do not see any good reason why only one of each or either is the maximum number, either. It is clearly not logically  necessary for a creator to be eternal, though it might be possible.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2014, 01:28:37 PM »
Captalism favors freedom....which includes the freedom for some folks choose to combine their rescources, in an effort to maximize their successes

Chrisitianity favors freedom....to chose to believe in God, and to act in a Christ-like way....or in your case, not.

Neither of which forces/mandates you to have to do anything, period.  I thank you for injecting Jesus into the topic, even if it was done as yet another deflection effort
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2014, 03:17:04 PM »
   Has the development of Christianity been a mere coincidence with the development of tolerant society?


   

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2014, 11:01:44 PM »
Christianity was institutionalized in the 4th Century BC as the official religion of the Roman Empire. People were punished in various ways and in various degrees for over a thousand years after that date.  The fact that Jesus lied in a time when slavery was common and never once spoke out against it seems to suggest that he was unconcerned with the injustice of slavery. The average Hebrew on the street might be forgiven this omission, since slavery WAS the custom, but Jesus was God, or so it is claimed. He was far more concerned with the unfair exchange rate by merchants outside the Temple of Roman money (unholy, because it had Caesar's face on it, and Caesar claimed to be a god) and Jewish money.

From the beginning of Colonial times until after the Civil War, many books were printed and circulated teaching that slavery was actually beneficial to the slaves, because Jesus said, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" This was interpreted to mean that in return for three or four decades of chopping tobacco and picking cotton, a slave would become a Christian and therefore would be rewarded in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Probably an equal but surely a separate part of Heaven, I imagine.)

The idea that each person had one soul of equal value, a concept most common to the Quakers and other religious dissidents did have a lot to do with the end of slavery.  Of course, Gen. Simon Bolivar, Gen. José de San Martín and Padres and Morelos and Gen.Vicente Guerrero all abolished slavery in the Latin American Wars od Independence. In the American Revolution, who promised freedom to the slaves? The British, of course.

"
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2014, 12:45:38 AM »
  It is not the case that anything that Jesus did not directly condemn gets his seal of approval.

    Slavery that was practiced according to Old Testament law had limits and was therefore not as bad as the slavery practiced in the US or Brazil or Jamaica .

     When someone became a Slave in Israel the law gave him his freedom in seven years , unless he volunteered to remain enslaved at that point.

     If we had really been following scripture , the problems of slavery might not have developed into the desperate situation that nearly tore the nation down.

Quote
The idea that each person had one soul of equal value, a concept most common to the Quakers and other religious dissidents did have a lot to do with the end of slavery.  Of course, Gen. Simon Bolivar, Gen. José de San Martín and Padres and Morelos and Gen.Vicente Guerrero all abolished slavery in the Latin American Wars od Independence. In the American Revolution, who promised freedom to the slaves? The British, of course.

Good point.
      The English that developed an abolition movement were Christians, the Americans that became abolitionists were Christians.   Of course most of the pro-slavery people were insulted at any suggestion that approval of slavery made them any less a Christian.

     I don't know as much about the South Americans, what was their reasoning for abolition?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Vladimir Putin
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2014, 11:14:38 AM »
Vicente Guerrero was a mulatto and the best general of the 1810 rebellion. Simon Bolivar was the son of Basques (not Castilians) and Canarios, none of whom were considered as nobility in Spain. The soldiers of San Martin, O'Higgins, Bolivar and Sucre were mostly mestizos, zambos, mulattos and other oppressed men who saw abolition of slavery as their main reason to fight. Slaves knew that if they escaped and joined the revolution, they would not be reenslaved.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."