Author Topic: The Complete Absence of Common Sense  (Read 4048 times)

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Michael Tee

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The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« on: February 13, 2007, 09:39:09 PM »
I'd like to start off by thanking my most tireless opponents, sirs particularlly, also plane and Ami, for helping me crystallize my thoughts around the issue of "Bush Lied, They Died."  You forced me to think hard, discard some of my previous patterns of thinking and ultimately to understand how it is that I, and probably millions of others, just "know" that Bush lied.

No, there isn't a "smoking gun."  At least, none that I'm aware of.  You can't find the lie by painstakingly parsing Bush's public statements and comparing them with events on a timeline.  (Or maybe you can, but I didn't.)

It is really very simple.  The elephant and the mouse.  A nation of 300,000,000 people with the world's most powerful, expensive and technologically advanced military and a world-wide empire of bases to support it, "afraid" of a Third World, boycotted-to-breakdown, nation of 23 million?  COME ON.  There is the lie in all its glory.  There never was a threat, there never could have been a threat, and NOBODY in a position of authority could have reasonably believed there was a threat.

How did this lie, this bullshit, so totally absurd on the face of it, achieve the success that it did?  If you study the posts of sirs in particular, you will see one of the reasons.  sirs argues gamely that Bush couldn't have been lying because "almost all the intelligence agencies of the world" believed as Bush was led to believe by his own "intelligence community."  [Note, I am using quotes here to indicate a paraphrase of sirs' arguments, not an exact quote of sirs' own words, so I will apologize in advance if I have inadvertently misrepresented any of sirs' ideas, particularly those in quotes.]  In a nutshell, it's deference to "expert opinion" taken to a slavish extreme.  It has to be a reasonable opinion because the experts all say so.

Of course, the "experts" probably would not go so far as to say, "Invade Iraq."  Supposedly, they only report on what kind of weapons Saddam has or is working on.  They can assess the "threat" of weapons like that in Saddam's hands, i.e., what he would be likely to do with them.  They might even go so far as to make policy recommendations or at least present a range of policy options for the "President's" to choose from.

Well, as we all know now, Bush reviewed the "intelligence" (or some of it) and decided to invade.  What Bush and his administration told the nation to justify the invasion was that he had seen the intelligence, that it indicated that Saddam had WMD and was working on getting more and that the country could not risk waiting any longer for a diplomatic resolution of the "problem."  The unmistakeable inference was that there was a threat in Saddam's remaining undisturbed in the possession of what WMD he had and in the work on developing and/or acquiring more of them.  Common sense alone would tell any sane, normal intelligent human being that none of the weapons Saddam had or might have could possibly match the U.S. arsenal, and that at the first attack or even sign of an attack, that Saddam and his 23 million fellow citizens would be vaporized. 

That same common sense must have suggested the same conclusions to Bush and his cabinet members.  They MUST have known, even as they were putting out the word that a great "threat" existed, which had to be met with the most drastic action, that it was absurd and a lie.  But to millions of Americans, trust in their institutions, fear of the alien, natural ignorance and probably xenophobia too all combined to blot out common sense and "buy into" the bogus justification for war that I am sure the administration itself knew was a crock.

In a sizeable element of the American public, a complete absence of common sense and critical thinking leaves a large number of citizens defenceless against the manipulation of demagogues like Bush, representing the most sinister influences in the nation.  It's frightening. 

Plane

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 12:26:02 AM »
I'd like to start off by thanking my most tireless opponents, sirs particularlly, also plane and Ami, for helping me crystallize my thoughts around the issue of "Bush Lied, They Died."  You forced me to think hard, discard some of my previous patterns of thinking and ultimately to understand how it is that I, and probably millions of others, just "know" that Bush lied.

Success!
This is exactly what we hope to do for our participants isn't it?
I get it this way too so thank you also!
Quote

No, there isn't a "smoking gun."  At least, none that I'm aware of.  You can't find the lie by painstakingly parsing Bush's public statements and comparing them with events on a timeline.  (Or maybe you can, but I didn't.)


It might be worth  try , but I thnk you are right.
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It is really very simple.  The elephant and the mouse.  A nation of 300,000,000 people with the world's most powerful, expensive and technologically advanced military and a world-wide empire of bases to support it, "afraid" of a Third World, boycotted-to-breakdown, nation of 23 million?  COME ON.  There is the lie in all its glory.  There never was a threat, there never could have been a threat, and NOBODY in a position of authority could have reasonably believed there was a threat.

I am considerably larger than several things that can hurt me ,rattlesnakes , black widow spiders , bacteria.
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In a sizeable element of the American public, a complete absence of common sense and critical thinking leaves a large number of citizens defenceless against the manipulation of demagogues like Bush, representing the most sinister influences in the nation.  It's frightening. 

I would like to see an example of clear thinking , that could reconcile this concept with the reality of Americans being targeted by truely tiny organisations here and there throughout the world.

sirs

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 02:33:17 AM »
Well, with the effort not to make this personal or counterproductive, I appreciate the point Tee is making in that he simply believes Bush lied us into war.  Call it a gut feeling, call it instinct, call it alot of things......common sense not really being among them, but at least there's a concession here that the Bush lied mantra is largely visceral vs factual, and from my perspective, largely emotional vs logical.  a solid step forward, Tee



(of course now, as I start delving into some of the older threads, I'll likely see a whole host of personal slurs and insults thrown in my direction.  Then again, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, me being the optimist that I am)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2007, 09:58:14 AM »
<<Call it a gut feeling, call it instinct, call it alot of things......common sense not really being among them, but at least there's a concession here that the Bush lied mantra is largely visceral vs factual, and from my perspective, largely emotional vs logical.  a solid step forward, Tee>>

Better read the post again, sirs.  It was all based on common sense and fact - - the absurdity of Iraq ever being a threat to the U.S.  There was no scenario produced to date that would not have resulted in minimal harm to the U.S.A and total anihilation of Iraq.  It was absurd and it was a lie because no one in the government could possibly have been stupid enough to believe such an absurdity.  They were like wizards of Madison Avenue selling a "product" that they all knew was crap.

<<(of course now, as I start delving into some of the older threads, I'll likely see a whole host of personal slurs and insults thrown in my direction.  >>

Sorry 'bout that, but if you ever find even one that was NOT precipitated by insulting or disrespectful behaviour on your part, let me know about it.

Michael Tee

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2007, 10:07:52 AM »
<<I am considerably larger than several things that can hurt me ,rattlesnakes , black widow spiders , bacteria.>>

If you want to argue that it is logical for a man to fear a rattlesnake, I will agree with you.  The snake can inject venom into your body that can kill you.

If you want to extend that argument to Iraq, you lose me.  There is no venom Iraq can inject that will kill the 300,000,000 people of America.  They could in the most extreme fantasy kill many Americans but never more than a fraction of the whole and the price for that would be their total anihilation - - something the snake doesn't realize when he strikes.

So the reasonable prospects of a devastating strike by Iraq on America are nil.  Both because they don't have the means and because they fear the payback.  Bush and his gang knew that.  Any sensible man or woman would.  The hysteria they whipped up was in support of an agenda that had nothing to do with threats and everything to do with oil.

sirs

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 11:04:03 AM »
<<Call it a gut feeling, call it instinct, call it alot of things......common sense not really being among them, but at least there's a concession here that the Bush lied mantra is largely visceral vs factual, and from my perspective, largely emotional vs logical.  a solid step forward, Tee>>

Better read the post again, sirs.  It was all based on common sense and fact

Oh I read it quite clearly.  It's more so, Tee-leaf logic (must follow template...must follow template) and molehill of selected "fact", all with the sole purpose of ignoring the overwhelming mountain of facts and common sense to the contrary.   And I won't even go into one of the more tired twisted disrtortions that it was all about preventing Saddam from attacking U.S mainland.  That's kunte-stuff, not really worthy of being debated, since it was never an issue.  But I do appreciate Plane trying to debate it with you.  Some folks have a lot more patience than I.


<<(of course now, as I start delving into some of the older threads, I'll likely see a whole host of personal slurs and insults thrown in my direction.  >>

Sorry 'bout that, but if you ever find even one that was NOT precipitated by insulting or disrespectful behaviour on your part, let me know about it.

That'd be nearly every one, as far as who started it.  The vast majority of any disrespect on my part was in responding to said personal slurs & insults
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

larry

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 11:16:22 AM »
The U.S. Government and the U.N. have no authority in a state of war. The (Authority) is subject to public acceptance. This is true and an absolute for all forms of established authority. The authority of the United States Of America is in serious trouble. I do believe the U.S. is close to war between the haves and the have nots. I do believe the current system of economics, is bias and that will be the cause of rebellion. Its not a question of "if" it is a question of "when". Yes they all lie to us and as a result large numbers of the U.S. population are being forced into poverty and politically disenfranchised. That will lead to war.

BT

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 11:25:09 AM »
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I do believe the U.S. is close to war between the haves and the have nots.

So ..... are you advising i go out and get some firepower?

sirs

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2007, 11:28:19 AM »
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I do believe the U.S. is close to war between the haves and the have nots.

So ..... are you advising i go out and get some firepower?

I'd recommend a 50caliber   

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

larry

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2007, 11:31:04 AM »
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I do believe the U.S. is close to war between the haves and the have nots.

So ..... are you advising i go out and get some firepower?


Yes and it may be a good idea to have an escap plan for you and your family. A storm is coming, its not muther nature it is human nature.

Michael Tee

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2007, 02:52:25 PM »
<<That'd be nearly every one, as far as who started it.  The vast majority of any disrespect on my part was in responding to said personal slurs & insults>>

Bullshit.  There probably isn't one.  That's why I challenged you to find one.

Jwmcc

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2007, 03:06:55 PM »
What Tee is missing in his hypothesis is that the buildup to then the invasion all took place less than two years after 9/11/01. People in this country were still loaded for bear to get at someone, anyone who thought to be responsible or a threat to the nation in this "global war on terror". Plus the fact that many thought we didn't finish the job back in '91 so it was time to take care of un-finished business.
Jw

Amianthus

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2007, 03:23:30 PM »
Plus the fact that many thought we didn't finish the job back in '91 so it was time to take care of un-finished business.

Yeah, I'd been hearing this a lot since about '94. That's why I predicted we'd be back in Iraq starting about then.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

yellow_crane

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2007, 03:33:06 PM »
The U.S. Government and the U.N. have no authority in a state of war. The (Authority) is subject to public acceptance. This is true and an absolute for all forms of established authority. The authority of the United States Of America is in serious trouble. I do believe the U.S. is close to war between the haves and the have nots. I do believe the current system of economics, is bias and that will be the cause of rebellion. Its not a question of "if" it is a question of "when". Yes they all lie to us and as a result large numbers of the U.S. population are being forced into poverty and politically disenfranchised. That will lead to war.


The authority to which you infer ("authority of the United States")  is a result of an imbalance on governmental power.

It is not the first time that one branch has tried to grab more power than they are constitutionally entitled, and it won't be the last.

The last will be when the citizens of the United States give up on confronting the imbalance, and the culpable source of that power misuse.

I must admit, I thought it was over.  

But when Murtha stepped forward and confronted this arrogant administration, the press took back their character from the tops of their individual media pyramids, and began to act like true journalists.

Without the media, the imbalance could well become codified by the reigning usurped power.  In this case, properly identifed, that power is Cheney and the whole obscene power structure of corporations in America, now acting pathological and against the interests of most Americans.

domer

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Re: The Complete Absence of Common Sense
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2007, 04:36:00 PM »
I'm still waiting, lo these many months, for Crane to issue an intelligent, coherent critique of corporate power in America: its harms and the specific remedies he sees as effectual. Now, I am inclined by both temperment and experience to join in a rousing repudiation of excess and dysfunction in this matter, but I am much too sophisticated to sweep out the entire system of corporate accumulation and use of capital on little more than a whim, as Crane apparently is ready to do without discrimination.

On another matter, Bush and war, I have long consistently held that Bush fucked up grandly by initiating the Iraq War, but that he did so with a lesser degree of malfeasance than intentionality (consciously lying). Instead, I have considered his screw up to have been (and to be) somewhere on the scale between reckless and negligent, the type that a person commits when he is hellbent on a result, perhaps subconsciously, and simply  bungles the means of getting to that conclusion.