Author Topic: The impediment of wealth  (Read 1367 times)

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Plane

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The impediment of wealth
« on: January 23, 2015, 01:16:17 AM »
http://foreignaffairsreview.co.uk/2014/05/inequality-and-democracy/

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In 2011, Apple CEO Tim Cook took home $378m, 6258 times the average wage of an Apple employee.

Am I really poorer because one of my brethren has a lot more income and savings?

This article is well written and includes some interesting facts, but it has some extremely wrongheaded assumptions , assumptions that I have been seeing a lot and repeated from high places.

Whether Tim Cook deserves his pay is one argument , and whether his high pay is harmful to anyone else is another argument, these are related but are conflated to confusion so lets separate them .

Tim Cook must be one of the worst offenders if his pay is more than three orders of magnitude above the average of his employees.

    But his least paid employees make twice the federal minimum wage, this is just a clerks job that in many establishments makes exactly the minimum wage.

  Why is Tim Cook being used as an example of the negative effect ?

    What is this negative effect? How does this negative effect operate? Why should I think it is anything but imaginary?

    If you were to double the pay of the CEO and also double the pay of his employees he would grow worse as an offender .

     This is just really bad math , not a pay problem .


http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm
 

Plane

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 01:48:32 AM »
Quote
“…the more power the government has to pick winners and losers, the more power rich people will have relative to poor people.”
https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2014/01/21/the-biggest-impediment-for-the-poor-is-government-not-inequality/




This article is also well written and includes some good facts , and I agree with its conclusions, always a plus.

This question is key
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...…is it a bad thing for a country to have some really rich people? Again, it depends on how they got rich.....

    This is very key, Cuba has very few very wealthy , and a generally low standard of living, China started at a similar point thirty years ago when Mao Died , very few wealthy and a generally low standard of living.

    Now Cuba is just as bad off as it was thirty years ago , but China has thousands of millionaires and hundreds of millions of car owners, the Chinese standard of living has dramatically improved at the same time as they LOST a severe case of economic equality.

     Could China have done even better?

       Perhaps , if they had of had less cronyism and less corruption they could have even more millionaires and generally improved standards of living.

        The experiment is ongoing, Cuba is about to loose the embargo that was an impediment to its growth , but it seems destined to keep the economic equality that is much worse.

        There is a misconception that there is an economic pie which when one person takes a large slice of leaves less for the rest, this is a pitifully simplified misperception.

          The economy of the world is more like a pie factory, where the guys that have bigger trucks carry away more pie and distribute the more pie than the guys with smaller trucks, as long as the delivery trucks keep coming and buying pie the pie factory will make more pies , they will build additional ovens if they must , but they will not turn away an empty truck if they can get paid instead.

          So there is already lots of pie, but the more people want to buy pie the more pie there will be.



       

sirs

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 03:48:37 AM »
Great piece, Plane. I recall the other day, someone referencing something very similar.....how Bill Gates, did whatever he did to not just make something of himself, and provide a too-many-to-count list of employment opportunities, and in the process made gazillions of dollars.....how did that take anything away from me?  from you?  Just because someone makes money, it doesn't defacto take anything away from anyone else.  The only entity that takes is .......... drum roll ........... Government
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 10:01:35 AM »
Bill Gates is entirely atypical of the average robber baron.

When Carl Icahn, Rupert Murdock, and the Kochsters sign on to donate their wealth to something that helps their fellow humans rather than just adding bazillions more to their treasure chest, then you might make some sense.

There are dozens, maybe hundreds more Kochsters than Gateses.

Again, China has a centralized economy and has managed to use capitalism more effectively and with less starvation and violence to achieve development than anyone else, anywhere else.

Of course, China has been a collectivist society led by technocrats for centuries. Cuba was an exploited colony for its entire history.
And Cuba is very far from being anywhere close to having the greatest poverty in Latin America. 

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 10:30:36 AM »
Bill Gates is entirely atypical of the average robber baron.

Irrelevant.  He made a ton of money, and it cost you nothing.  Murdoch and the Kochs have made a ton of money, and it also cost you nothing.  Steyer & Soros have made a ton of money, but you don't include them in your list here.  Your beef is folks like Murdoch & Koch apparently don't donate enough of what they earned towards those organizations and causes you would.  So, at least a little of the truth squeezed out here.....they donate too much to Conservative causes and not enough to liberal causes.  As such, they must be pillaried, and denounced as members of those "evil rich", despite the FACT, that the top 10 rich folks who donated large sums of money this last election cycle, were ALL Democrats.  I think Koch, came in at #14

Thank you for some more of that Gruberesque honesty


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 03:28:47 PM »
Your information is suspect, and ignores "dark money".

Carrying large bundles of cash about is something that the Republicans have always done. Watergate was hardly the only time.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2015, 04:32:30 PM »
Throwing out outlandish accusation, after outlandish accusation, hardly makes them credible.  THEY ALL CARRY LARGE BUNDLES OF CASH, Dems & Republicans.  You can spout "oligarchy" and "dark money" all you want.....how convenient not to be able to corroborate or validate any of the accusations.   It's like the lack of any evidence is some defacto proof of the accusation    ::)   Political Corruption and illegal aquistion of campaign contributions is hardly confined to 1 party.

Speaking of uber rich robber barons, can't help but laugh at the utter hypocrisy of folks like Michael Moore & Tom Steyer.  The former condemns capitalism, while it was capitalism that provided his wealth.  The latter made his fortunes in the oil & energy sectors, while he decries the horrors of "big oil".  Notice both their lack of giving up their gazillions, to lead a more middle class lifestyle, living within their means, while practicing what they preach

Which brings us back from the delfection effort, "clear money" is spent in droves, far more by Democrats than Republicans, towards candidates & causes.  Your beef is that some of these uber rich don't donate to the right folks & causes.  Otherwise, you'd be decrying ALL of the uber rich...not just the Conservative or Libertarian folk
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2015, 10:18:35 PM »

Again, China has a centralized economy and has managed to use capitalism more effectively and with less starvation and violence to achieve development than anyone else, anywhere else.

.

China had the greatest famine of all human history before they discovered that equality of income was prone to cause that kind of thing.

Is there a Chicken and egg quandary here?

They have a lot of millionaires now and they have a better standard of living now and they have less violence now and they have more income inequality now, but which of these caused the others?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2015, 11:07:19 PM »
Mao was a financial disaster, of course. The Great Leap Forward  and the cultural revolution were huge disasters. But the purpose was not to create equality of wealth, it was a lot sillier than that. And the Chinese have learned since Mao how to use capitalism as a tool to develop China. No one is suggesting that Maoism be imposed on the US. A 30% tax on capital gains all that has been proposed. That was the rate when Reagan was president, by the way.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2015, 11:12:45 PM »
Lets make the tax on capitol gains 100% and the tax on interest income and dividends 50% per year and cancel everyone's retirement.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2015, 11:21:35 PM »
That is stupid, and not even funny.

It does not make sense to tax income from labor at double the rate of income from investments.
I am an investor, and have not received a dime for my labor for five years now.

It is amusing to read articles about how wise some people think they are to invest in tax free municipals and get 4%, maybe, when they could easily invest in corporate bonds, earn 9% and make 7.5% after taxes.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2015, 11:33:50 PM »
That is stupid, and not even funny.

It does not make sense to tax income from labor at double the rate of income from investments.
I am an investor, and have not received a dime for my labor for five years now.

It is amusing to read articles about how wise some people think they are to invest in tax free municipals and get 4%, maybe, when they could easily invest in corporate bonds, earn 9% and make 7.5% after taxes.

  If raising taxes on investment income is stupid , why are such things suggested so often as legislation?

     I agree that reducing the tax rate on labor would be good , but I do not expect it , practically no one is proposing such legislation.

 


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 10:12:51 AM »
It is not stupid to raise the capital gains rate, especially on the superrich. This would not even be so onerous that it would delay their building elevators in their garages for the extra cars. It is proposed often because it is fair.

It used to be that the increase in productivity resulted in the people actually doing the producing getting raises. Now all the raise in productivity goes to the top 1%.  All of it. That is not fair, and it is not good for the people of this country.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 10:35:20 AM »
As has been referenced before, you could raise taxes on the evil uber rich to 90%.  It wouldn't even begin to dent the debt this President's policies have placed us under....much less pay for even more things like "free" junior college.  And in the process of trying to punish the uber rich for daring to be rich you degrade the employment opportunities for everyone else, that much more, as the rich take their $$$'s elsewhere, especially if they're a major employer
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The impediment of wealth
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 02:52:06 PM »
It is hardly a punishment to tax the super rich at the same rate as a person who works for a living with his hands.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."