Author Topic: A New Spin on Iraq...  (Read 13256 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2007, 12:03:41 PM »
<<Who??>>  [sirs' response to the names of Fouad Ajami, Daniel Pipes and Bernard Lewis]

These are writers and/or academics who have studied Islam and the Middle East and are treated by the MSM as experts in the field.  These so-called "experts," BTW, are very supportive of the Bush Administration and its policies in the Middle East.  Other academics and writers who are opposed to the Bush Administration and its policies in the Middle East are Uri Avneri, Juan Cole (probably the most knowledgeable of all of them, the late Edward Said, and of course Noam Chomsky. 

It wouldn't hurt you to read a little from any of these. 

Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2007, 12:09:52 PM »
 << I sorta missed all of the supporters of the administration being dismissive of Arab tradition or intelligence.>>

Those guys are all supporters of the Bush administration, or they were before the invasion of Iraq.  They were the academic backbone of the "greeted with rose petals as liberators" kind of bullshit that was so prominently taken up by the talking heads in the early days.  I understand that these guys are now trying to backpedal like crazy from their moronic predictions, blaming the Bush administration for a clumsy execution of the Master Plan or even admitting to some degree of unwarranted optimism on their part.

Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2007, 12:59:30 PM »
Excellent post, XO.  The nub of it, and the simple answer to plane's question, I think, is:

<<Democracy developed in the US, Switzerland, and the Netherlands because there was no single religion dominant. In Europe, people were tired after centuries of religious wars. England had a Civil War between Catholics and Protestants, and then between Cavaliers (Church of England) and Roundheads (dissenters).>>

English "democracy" (civil liberties, more properly) developed out of the religous wars as you stated.  People got sick of the constant rounds of beheadings, burnings at the stake, hangings, etc. and the worst of it was, no side ever stayed on top.  Even the most partisan people finally adjusted to the idea that it could be their turn next.  So the idea of religious tolerance (one of the civil liberties) developed.  Freedom of speech probably had a more complex intellectual history.

The ideals of democracy were more complex and you'd probably need a real scholar to explain it all, but I'll take a stab at it:  it was familiar to classical scholars from the experience of Greece in the 4th Century BC and it started to take off in England with the rise of the middle class, whose wealth, in contrast to the old aristocracy, was based on money rather than on land.  This middle class could be taxed by the sovereign to pay for wars which were directed by the King and his barons, in which the middle class ("mere" merchants) had no say.  As the sovereign's demands for money intensified, the middle class looked more and more to Parliament as their protection, which culminated in the English Civil War.   The whole mess ended with the nominal restoration of the Stuart monarchy but as a constitutional monarchy keenly aware of the Parliamentary limits on its power. 

English democracy was basically a wealth-protection scheme of a new merchant class and represented one more stage in the slow decline in the power of the landed aristocracy.  Originally the franchise was tightly restricted, so the only voters were the middle classes themselves, but they sure as hell outnumbered the landed aristocracy and controlled a hell of a lot more liquid wealth, so it worked pretty well for them.  It was only later, in the 19th Century, that the franchise was extended to the rest of the country so as to make it truly "democratic," and that was probably due to the influence of philosophers like Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, as well as to the example of the American and French Revolutions.

The development of democracy and civil liberties in England (which were more or less just copied to America by its English settlers and further expanded upon there) depended on various local factors: the original feudal system, which resulted in a balance of power between the monarch and his barons, ultimately codified in a series of Magna Cartas, the customs and traditions of the Germanic tribes which had settled England, the rise of a monied middle class and its need to protect its assets from the demands of the older, land-owning aristocracy, the Protestant Reformation and the subsequent wars of religion, the utter savagery of which ultimately threatened everyone, since there was never a clear winner, the philosophers of the Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment, and the events of the French and American Revolutions.

I think only some of the events find parallels in Arab and Iraqi history - - the savagery of the wars of religion come first to mind.  But an Islamic tradition lacks a rapacious aristocracy living off the labours of the proletariat.  The Islamic state was always financed by a zakat, or tithe, that all members of the society contributed.  A sort of "flat tax," in fact.  So the need for a supreme Parliament to protect the wealth of the middle class never arose.  The concept that God was the supreme ruler, not some hereditary monarch, produced less incentive for popularly elected government because people were conditioned to submit to a theocratic ruler, asking only that he be just and fair.

I dunno, plane asked a legitimate question, but you need to write a book to answer it.  I'm not the guy to write the book.  These were just a few of my thoughts on the subject.  Obviously, I've only just scratched the surface.  But I do not believe there is a made-in-America one-size-fits-all solution that wills solve Iraq's problems.  That's just simplistic bullshit, typical of the Bush supporters, too dumb to even realize the dimensions of the problem. 

The Bush adminsitration itself, BTW, does not have this problem.  They seek only to impose a puppet government on Iraq similar to the one they once imposed on Iran, which will guarantee a steady supply of oil and prevent the people of the region, the true owners of the oil, from exercising any real control at all over it.  A fake democracy similar to Egypt's would be ideal.  They make up the fairy tale of being there "to bring democracy" and their supporters are left to struggle with the essentially bogus issue of, "well, OK, just how do we go about doing that?"

sirs

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2007, 01:00:40 PM »
<<Who??>> 

These are writers and/or academics who have studied Islam and the Middle East and are treated by the MSM as experts in the field.  These so-called "experts," BTW, are very supportive of the Bush Administration and its policies in the Middle East. 

Look Tee, you can pick out the most whacked out folks on the right that you want, and supposedly validate their position by making them "very supportive" of Bush.  Makes them a nice counter to the whacked out far left commentaries you pose.  Neither does it make it some widespread mainstream position of the right, of how Arabs are to be taught to lose their traditions, and embrace some "sameness" agenda.  That's currently the agenda of Militant Islam, the actual enemies of this current war, we're in....Convert to Islam, be subjugated by it, or die.  Nothing nuanced about it

Point being the "who" is dead on, as it pertains to your accusation.  Picking a few fringe folk from the right, in no way validates the fringe left accusation of yours, of it being mainstream conservative thought, or how it was "all over the airwaves".  I've been pretty up to speed on most of the rhetoric, both left and right, and this is THE 1st time I've heard it


Other academics and writers who are opposed to the Bush Administration and its policies in the Middle East are Uri Avneri, Juan Cole, the late Edward Said, and of course Noam Chomsky.  It wouldn't hurt you to read a little from any of these.  

I appreciate the suggestion, however, I'll leave the hard left/right book reporting to the fringe folks, who actually swallow it.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2007, 01:31:31 PM »
<<Look Tee, you can pick out the most whacked out folks on the right that you want, and supposedly validate their position by making them "very supportive" of Bush.  . . .  Picking a few fringe folk from the right, in no way validates the fringe left accusation of yours>>

ROTFLMFAO.  Here's an example of somebody that sirs considers one of "the most whacked out folks on the right" and "fringe folk."  This is priceless.  What I need to know, sirs, is if this guy is "whacked out right" and "fringe right," what academics are you going to consider mainstream right?

<<http://www.danielpipes.org/bios/>>

“Fringe” writer Daniel Pipes has appeared in:  Philadelphia Inquirer, New York Times, New York Post, Wall Street Journal, Harvard Magazine, Financial Times, Jerusalem Post, the Globe & Mail and numerous other “fringe” publications; he’s a distinguished visiting Professor at Pepperdine University;

<<He has taught at the University of Chicago, Harvard University, and the U.S. Naval War College. He served in various capacities in the U.S. government, including two presidentially-appointed positions, vice chairman of the Fulbright Board of Foreign Scholarships and member of the board of the U.S. Institute of Peace. He was director of the Foreign Policy Research Institute in 1986-93.>>


<< . . .  how it was "all over the airwaves".  I've been pretty up to speed on most of the rhetoric, both left and right, and this is THE 1st time I've heard it>>

Why does this not surprise me?

sirs

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2007, 01:41:51 PM »
....Irrelevent linking....

A resume' is supposed to refute/validate one's views as ............ mainstream??  Predominant acceptable ideology??  I couldn't count how many nutcase Left Wing College Professors there currently are in this country, all with equally impressive "credentials".  Doesn't make what they say any less radical or accepted by actual mainstream thought.  oy 

Your moving into desperation direction there, Tee
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2007, 01:47:10 PM »
Seems to me that "nutcase," "fringe" and "whacked out" have a pretty elastic meaning in sirs' lexicon.  Or that sirs has very little idea of academic standards at institutions such as the U.S. Naval War College, Harvard U., and the U. of Chicago.  Usually when these institutions invite somebody to teach their students, they select for knowledge and credibiity, sirs.  If you are going to accuse somebody who taught there of being "fringe" etc., you should be able to show some pretty strong evidence of that status, other than the fact that you do not agree with their opinions.  Last time I checked, U. of Chicago, for example, did not rely on a sirs-rating before deciding if anyone was qualified to teach at their institution.

BT

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2007, 01:54:51 PM »
Pipes is to Bush as Chomsky was to Clinton. The only relationship they have as far as i can see is their position on the political spectrum relative to the whole.

Show where Pipes influenced the administration.


Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq... a kind of surreal argument
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2007, 01:56:30 PM »
After just posting my last post to sirs, it just suddenly hit me what a surreal exchange I have entered into.

I am actually sitting down at a keyboard trying to convince sirs that a guy who writes for the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and the Philadelphia Inquirer, who has lectured at Harvard, U. of Chicago and the U.S. Naval War College is not likely to be a whacked-out right-wing fringe nutbar simply on the basis that sirs has never heard of him, disagrees with his opinion and never heard anyone else voice a similar opinion.  I can't believe I got sucked into this kind of argument.

sirs, if you want to believe that Daniel Pipes is just a fringe element, God bless you, you go right ahead and do so.  Far be it from me to argue the point.  I'm giving up.  Going for lunch as a matter of fact.  Have a nice day.

sirs

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2007, 02:02:16 PM »
Pipes is to Bush as Chomsky was to Clinton. The only relationship they have as far as i can see is their position on the political spectrum relative to the whole.

Precisely.  Yet Tee is convinced that just because someone is well educated with a nice resume', their view must be considered predominantly acceptable by their ideological masses.    ::)   Just has to be, because.......well, because Tee says so.   

Now let's all sit back and watch how Tee rationalizes how mainstream the views of both Pipes and Chomsky are supposed to be.




"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2007, 02:03:12 PM »
Somebody mentioned Noam Chomsky: now there is a cunning linguist.

Michael Tee

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2007, 02:06:36 PM »
<<Pipes is to Bush as Chomsky was to Clinton. >>

That's not an exact analogy but it's not bad.

<<Show where Pipes influenced the administration.>>

I never said he did.  That wasn't my point at all.  plane denied that he'd ever heard before the invasion that it would be a good thing for the Arabs to junk their whole useless culture and learn American ways.  That view was common and I just searched out one example to prove it.

I don't think of guys like Pipes as an influence on the administration.  The administration doesn't give a shit what kind of culture the Arabs want to practice, they can evolve into a culture of incest and cannibalism for all they care about it.  All they want is the fucking oil, but they can never say that.  They have to pretend it is all about "democracy" and "freedom," which is the reason for all these essentially bogus debates, "Can it be done?" etc.

Pipes and his ilk are more of enablers than influencers.  They are mostly products of Zionist think tanks with their own agendas and they basically smear and downgrade Arabs and Muslims on a non-stop basis to minimize the daily crimes and oppression going on in the West Bank and Gaza.  Their views are useful to the Bush administration insofar as it needs to produce optimistic conclusions from the phony "debate" over whether their "democracy-building" efforts will succeed.  From the POV of the administration it's equally good if it can be concluded "Yes it can be done but we have to tear down the whole filthy Arab culture" or "Yes it can be done even if they preserve their culture."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 02:10:06 PM by Michael Tee »

yellow_crane

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2007, 02:07:40 PM »
Somebody mentioned Noam Chomsky: now there is a cunning linguist.
 


LOL.  Now there is a clever pun.

Henny

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2007, 02:26:23 PM »
Look Tee, you can pick out the most whacked out folks on the right that you want, and supposedly validate their position by making them "very supportive" of Bush.

Sirs, the authors he mentioned are very mainstream, and Daniel Pipes in particular has been consulted regarding Middle East issues by the government. The problem being that the authors mentioned are extreme right wing. Here's a little background:

Excerpt From: Daniel Pipes, Peacemaker?
By Michael Scherer
May 26, 2003

... His solution is simple: The Israeli military must force what Pipes describes as a "change of heart" by the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza -- a sapping of the Palestinian will to fight which can lead to a complete surrender. "How is a change of heart achieved? It is achieved by an Israeli victory and a Palestinian defeat," Pipes continued. "The Palestinians need to be defeated even more than Israel needs to defeat them."

Obviously, such extreme views put Pipes at odds with the stated policies of the Bush administration, and even Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has indicated he will accept the "road map" for peace. So it took many by surprise last month when President Bush nominated Pipes to the board of the United States Institute of Peace, a Congressionally sponsored think tank dedicated to "the peaceful resolution of international conflicts."

The nomination has angered American Muslim groups and liberal Jewish leaders, who see Pipes as a poor choice for a peace institute. "Daniel Pipes is not a peacemaker," says Susannah Heschel, a professor of Jewish Studies at Dartmouth and co-chair of the liberal Jewish group Tikkun. "It would be like appointing me to be the head of nuclear physics at Los Alamos."
http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2003/05/we_420_01.html

Henny

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Re: A New Spin on Iraq...
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2007, 02:28:37 PM »
Show where Pipes influenced the administration.

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