Author Topic: Are People Really "Born Gay"?  (Read 15616 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« on: July 01, 2015, 02:41:30 PM »
Can People Really be "Born Gay"?

Can someone really be "born gay"?  Is there a "gay gene"? Does biology equal destiny?

Clearly, the controversy over this issue is huge in our culture. While pro-gay activists and their allies want us to believe people are "born gay" and that sexual orientation is an unchangeable characteristic like race or eye color, a closer examination of the scientific evidence reveals that the "nature vs. nurture" debate over homosexuality is far from settled.

At best, the evidence for a genetic and/or biological basis to homosexual orientation is inconclusive.  In fact, since the early 1990s, numerous studies attempting to establish a genetic cause for homosexuality have not proven to be valid or repeatable, two important requirements for study results to become accepted as fact in the scientific community.

Because of this, the current thinking in the scientific community is that homosexuality is likely caused by a complex interaction of psychosocial, environmental and possible biological factors.  And the two leading national psychiatric and psychological professional groups agree that, so far, there are no conclusive studies supporting any specific biological or genetic cause for homosexuality. (1)

In sum, there is no scientific or DNA test to tell us if a person is homosexual, bisexual or even heterosexual for that matter. And since nobody is "born gay", it's clear that sexual orientation is, at its core, a matter of how one defines oneself, not a matter of biology or genes.

But what about the studies I've heard about in the media that say people are born gay?

While the media's headlines and reporting of these studies have given the impression that science is closing in on a "gay gene," it's important to note that each study suffers from significant problems and limitations. And what the researchers themselves have said about their own work is important. Specifically, you should know that their comments have never been fully reported in the press.

Some examples:

"From the 1991 Hypothalamus (Brain) Study, Simon LeVay, who self-identifies as gay, said: "It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain." (2)

"And from the 1991 Twins Study, Richard Pillard, also a gay man, admits: "Although male and female homosexuality appear to be at least somewhat heritable, environment must also be of considerable importance in their origins." (3)

"And from the 1993 X Chromosome Study, Dean Hamer , also a gay man said: ""environmental factors play a role. There is not a single master gene that makes people gay". I don't think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay." (4)

"And from the 2005 Fruit Fly Study, Barry Dickson, the lead researcher, admitted that the understanding of how innate behaviors are genetically determined is "rudimentary at best." He also admitted that the male-male courtship behaviors they observed probably involved "environmental and social stimuli" and that the female-female courtship behavior was abnormal, missing some key steps.  (5)

"And what about the 2005 male and 2006 female pheromone studies from Sweden that gay activists claimed were more evidence of a biological basis to homosexuality" (Pheromones are chemicals that can be smelled and are known to influence animal behavior. However, their role in humans is unknown.) Here, it is significant that Ivanka Savic, the lead researcher, said that the 2005 study had nothing to do with proving homosexuality to be biological. And regarding the 2006 study, she said "it is very important to make clear that the study has no implications for possible dynamics in sexual orientation."  (6)

"More recently, Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, summed up the research on homosexuality saying that "sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations" (italics added). (7)  As a comparison, Collins indicates that the potential genetic component for homosexuality is much less than the genetic contribution that has been found for common personality traits such as general cognitive ability, extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, neuroticism, openness, aggression and traditionalism. (8)

Clearly, the case for a "gay gene" has not been made.

So, do all gay people believe that sexual orientation is "fixed" and unchangeable?

Not by a long shot. While it's true that many homosexuals and their allies believe that people are "born gay" and cannot change, there exists a surprising, and not insignificant, minority of gays and lesbians who recognize that sexual orientation is, in fact, flexible.  For example, Kate Kendell, director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, argued in the gay magazine Frontiers that sexual orientation is not fixed.  And lesbian columnist and psychotherapist Jackie Black has said that sexuality is not static.  Further, lesbian author Camille Paglia argues that homosexuality is not normal and that it is an adaptation, not an inborn trait.

Most recently, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force spokesperson Roberta Sklar admitted in an ABC news story that today's young lesbians and bisexuals have a "more flexible view" about sexuality and see it as "a fluid thing." (9)

Thus, while no one knows for sure what causes a homosexual identity to develop, recent research confirms that substantial change is, indeed, possible.  Pro-gay ally Dr. Robert Spitzer of Columbia University published results from a study of 200 gay men and lesbians who had sought "re-orientation" therapy.  Spitzer found that most were able to achieve fulfilling heterosexual relationships.  While his research shows that such change often involves a long and difficult journey, it is nevertheless possible for highly motivated individuals. (10)

Even more recently in 2007, a landmark study was published by Drs. Stanton Jones and Mark Yarhouse which concluded that it is possible for homosexuals to change their physical attractions and that such efforts to bring about change do not appear to be psychologically harmful. Entitled  Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation, this groundbreaking research has been hailed by experts from both sides of the debate as being the most methodologically rigorous to date.  (11)

And as more evidence of the fact that people can and do change their sexual orientation, Exodus International, a group of more than 150 Protestant Christian ministries in the United States and around the world, represents literally tens of thousands of people who have made the choice to walk out of their homosexual and bisexual identities. Similar organizations exist for Roman Catholics (Courage), Mormons (Evergreen), Jews (JONAH) and Muslims (StraightWay).  (12)

Even in the secular cultural arena we see evidence of well-known people who have clearly changed their sexual orientation. Examples of formerly gay-identified celebrities who reportedly have become involved in relationships with people of the opposite gender include actors Anne Heche and Julie Cypher. Apparently, the reality that people can change their sexual identity isn't just a right-wing Christian thing.

Clearly, pro-homosexual advocates and their allies aren't dealing with all the evidence in their insistence that people are "born gay" and cannot change.

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sirs

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 03:34:58 PM »
It's a choice.....just as any other sexual urge is.  Some urges are moral, some not so much.  Simple as that
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 04:24:16 PM »
Most humans are not attracted to the opposite sex. It is not a matter of morality for them to avoid gay sex, just as it is not a problem for them to avoid eating the bark off of trees.

SOME people (and a number of animals) are attracted to members of the opposite sex. There are even some fish that change gender based on the sex of fish around them.

Attraction for members of the opposite sex is in the DNA of some people and not others, just like being left handed (considered a curse in some cultures).
The fact that they have not discovered a "gay gene" does not mean that none exists. Perhaps a gay urge is something that happens as a result of some sort of social factors, like clownfish changing gender (they have three).

It is simply ignorant to say that it is all a matter of "morality", when that "morality" is nothing but the manifestation of a particular view of a particular culture in a particular era, notably, Canaan/Israel/Palestine around the 3rd century BCE or so.

It is lots more fun for someone who has never had any homosexual urges to resist them and feel morally superior, as sirs obviously does.



Gay sex hurts no one. The human race has has gay people in it ever since we came down from the trees. If it were detrimental to us as a civilization, we would be extinct, just like being unafraid, flightless and delicious made the Dodo bird extinct.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 04:36:05 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
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sirs

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 04:38:04 PM »
.....and its still a choice.  Some choices, less moral than others
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 08:39:04 PM »
Can People Really be "Born Gay"?

Can someone really be "born gay"?  Is there a "gay gene"? Does biology equal destiny?


If,...

If the cause is medical , then there may be a medical fix for it.

Even of the biological cause is congenital , whatever is deficient or surplus can be stimulated or suppressed with medication more than likely.

If the cause is genetic then there could be a test for it applied in early pregnancy , then most "gay" infants might be aborted .

    If the cause of homosexuality is medical then there can be a scientific elimination of the phenomenon.


     I do  not expect there to be a medical cause of Homosexuality , I expect eventually it will be found to be a habituation like many other Human preferences. Learned behavior is not entirely free of genetic component , because there has to be an inherited ability to learn the habit, but the ability to learn is so common and deep in human beings that learned behavior is the best explanation for most of what we do both normally and abnormally.

      The comparison to left handedness is not really apt, in practically all human populations there is a 10% left handed cohort, whether it is encouraged or not. Where left handedness is encouraged (like boxers or baseball pitchers) there can be much larger fractions of left handed people , but these are chosen out of the population.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 09:51:56 PM »
Why not simply accept Gays and Lesbians for what they are as normal people with the same rights as everyone else?
Why should anyone submit to a "fix" for anything they do not want fixed?

If people WANT to be "normal" and there is a useful treatment for it, I see no reason for not allowing them to have it.

The percentage of Gays and Lesbians is the same in every culture that has been surveyed. It is EXACTLY the same sort of thing as left-handedness.

I see no reason to not simply accept people for what they are, so long as it does not harm or interfere with me or my life.

Seeing it as a moral issue is simply medieval.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2015, 01:14:52 AM »
I dont factor any of it. I used the closet equation . The very existence of the closet is proof that it's not choice. It's choice to act upon those feelings but not to have them. But the issue is those feelings not the action.

Many men have often said i can't imagine having sex with a man. That very statement is proof it's not choice. It's likely the most pro-gay statement around. But most don't see it that way. Funny.

If it was choice then straight men will find both sex attractive but simply prefer women more. 

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2015, 08:28:40 AM »
Like so many things in nature, there is a continuum involved. There are some who find sex with members of the opposite sex so utterly repulsive they cannot imagine even other people practicing it: there are others at the other end who find it absolutely irresistibly enticing, and there are many people who are less emotional about it.

If other mammals practice gay sex, and they do, then it is part of the DNA. Humans are social animals and every society has some way of dealing with the Gays that figure into its population. The Iranian ayatollahs deny that there are any Gay Iranians. Gay sex was a central element of the civilization of ancient Sparta. There is a continuum among human societies as well.

There have been few societies in which exclusively gay man dominated, because they could not pass the leadership of the monarchy or the priesthood on to their offspring, since they would have none.

Women have rarely been dominant because of their lesser physical strength. An Amazon  society like the fictional Wonder Woman grew up in is probably impossible among human beings.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2015, 10:19:09 AM »
....and its still a choice.  Some choices, less moral than others.  No one said they were abnormal.  Its no different than someone choosing to enter an adulterous relationship.  People have different desires, some more moral than others.  Doesn't mean they've got a screw loose, although when the urge shifts to young children....that's when the moral line isn't just being crossed, its being obliterated
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2015, 10:34:08 AM »
SIRS....the excuse makers always try to tie any abnormal behavior to some kind of genetic reason.
It allows them to blame something besides looking in the mirror.
Murderers, criminals...."well it's in their DNA"
Pedophiles...."well it's an uncontrollable urge"
Alcoholics...."well it is genetic...or his parents were alc-ies"
School failure...."well he's got A.D.D."
Obesity...."well it's a thyroid problem" or  "well it's Burger King's fault"
DUI...."well the bar served him too much & thats why he was drunk when he killed those people"
Black crime..."well it's because they're poor"....(they were poor decades ago and a lot less crime)

Excuse makers are enablers


 
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kimba1

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2015, 11:19:13 AM »
then the question is why have an excuse for being gay.

I only hear that it's less moral but not why. Cu list most has behavior thatbleads to harm . This is a group that for all this time has not been lead to any serious harm. Even aids seems to not be serious charge against them now.

i think the reason thier againing acceptance is finally enough people know them and the thought they are deserving lesser treatment is unjust. That list are behavior that people who deal with them tend to not like them. Gays rarely get that response. I never heard people say they know gay people and they are trouble. i believe that issure of morality is not even brought up on the topic in that list,only gays get that tag. Its like they cant pin a crime so just use that

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2015, 11:23:17 AM »
What right do you have to inflict your morals on other people who do not harm you in any way?

I say you have NONE.

On LGBT rights, a majority of the country agrees with the latest Supreme Court ruling, and this is not going to change.

It is not a matter of making excuses, it is about TOLERANCE. CU and sirs are INTOLERANT.
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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2015, 12:01:51 PM »
Non-sense....
You have no idea what you are talking about.
You prefer the easy way and demonize first without knowing the facts.

What right does 3% of the population have to force their deviant behavior
and redefine language/standards that have been in place for centuries across all
cultures, religions, and nations?

I am tolerant of gays.
I have gay friends.
I have knowingly hired gays at my company for years and I knowingly use gay vendors.
I could easily choose otherwise...but it's not an issue to me.
One of my department managers (I promoted) is gay.

My only real problem with gays (besides thinking their sexual habits are totally disgusting)
is that a tiny, tiny minority tries to impose their will on the vast majority not thru the ballot box
but thru unelected judges....in trying to re-define marriage which is only between a man and woman.

The union of a man and woman is unique...and has created mankind and human history.
None of us would even be here without the union of male and female.
So that union is special...sacred...and without equal.
Calling two men together a marriage is a fraud...it is undeserving of such title.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2015, 01:30:23 PM »
then the question is why have an excuse for being gay.

I only hear that it's less moral but not why.

Because Kimba, when you're a child, your parents teach you your moral code.  They do it, however they've decided to do it, and they instill the moral compass that you can then accept or be rebellious and reject it for your own version.  Why is murder a moral bad?  Why is Adultery?  Because that's what we've been taught.  The left likes to hang onto this level of moral equivalence, where nothing is outside the scope of acting on, so long as that person finds it ok for themselves, and who are we to judge. 

Adultery really isn't harmful.  Willing participants in Sadomasochism isn't really harmful.  But I'm allowed to judge such acts as being immoral, based on my upbringing.  Doesn't make them "abnormal" or "damaged" that requires fixing.  I simply can acknowledge it for what is is......a choice.  Some choices less moral than others.

And no, that isn't "forcing" my morals on anyone else.  People can act however they want.  However, they don't have a right not to be offended if I judge such acts as being immoral
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Are People Really "Born Gay"?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2015, 01:54:03 PM »
Since there is rather a lot of proof that a certain percentage of every human society is composed of gay individuals, why would you assume that gays do not have a function in human society?  Clownfish have essentially THREE genders. They were also created by whatever created humans, so this is the way clownfish must be meant to be.  In a colony of clownfish, there are several females, one male and several males in waiting, that can only become full fledged males if something happens to the dominant male.

Your concept that the entirety of human civilization has been based on married couples, one man and one woman from Adam and Eve to present is quaint, but is hardly historically accurate. On repeated occasions in the Bible, Jehovah actually commands a man to take more than one wife. God commands Abram to mate with Hagar and then causes Sarah to become pregnant at some implausible advanced age. Joseph met Rachel and immediately knew that she was his One True Love, but he had to marry her older sister Leah first, because the father had some rather strict rules about marriage and nookie. So Jacob had TWO wives and God said not one word in opposition. He did not get very upset over Solomon having 700 wives and 300 concubines, either. I bet several of them really liked anal sex, you are going to find at least several women in a thousand who are really into anal action. Hell, maybe a couple of them were hermaphrodites. 

Polygamy is common in the Bible and in many ancient societies. All the Pharoahs were polygamous. Polyandry (marriage between several men and one woman) has also been common in other human societies. One man and one woman has not even been the basis in this country. American Indians were often polygamous, some polyandrous, and then there was Ol'; Bigamy Young with fifty odd wives and a whole lot more polygamous Mormons. Some even live in Texas.

Marriage between one man and one woman is NOT any sort of arrangement that every society has considered special and unique.
Gorillas and chimps typically are organized in groups of one dominant male and several females, that are not necessarily faithful to their mate. There is a lot of monkey business in the monkey house.

You are only arguing about the use of one word. You want to deny gay people to declare themselves to be married, as though this would somehow affect you in any way, which it does not.
No one is forcing anyone to marry a person of the opposite sex.
No one is forcing you to cornhole anyone or be cornholed by anyone. You are free to have sex or not have it any way you choose. Just as everyone else should also have that right.

I dare you to speculate about how long anal sex has been practiced by human beings. I would say that it has been around, practiced by both men and women in every conceivable combination since before we came down from the trees. You should read research on binabos and chimps perhaps become enlightened. Anal sex between man and woman has been a method of birth control since forever. There are lots of porno tapes you could watch in which couples seem to really dig it.

You only think you are tolerant, but you are very far from it. You are seriously intolerant, uptight and uncool. Not to mention seriously ignorant of anthropology. One man one woman, forever joined let no man rend them asunder until death do they part is just one of several types of marriage. You are certainly free to choose what is best for yourself, but why do you have this need to judge others that  do not fit into your rather limited group?

BY THE WAY. the most common arrangement in the US seems to be not one man and one woman for life for as long as both shall live, but serial polygamy.
You know, first Jane Wyman and then Nancy Davis. Ronald Reagan was a serial polygamist. So is John McCain. First Cindy, then Carol. Shit, your beliefs do not even extend to Republican Presidents and presidential candidates!

The next time you shake hands with one of your many gay pals, CU, just think about where that had has BEEN!  Ewwwwww!  Now imagine it is CONTAGIOUS!  Double Ewwwwwwww!

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."