Author Topic: Tricky survey of violence  (Read 867 times)

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Plane

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Tricky survey of violence
« on: August 02, 2015, 09:38:01 AM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/americas-most-violent-and-most-peaceful-states/ar-AAdGPBZ

One of the factors the survey counts towards violence is gun ownership.
So every gun shut up in a safe is contributing to the violence rating .

Also counts incarceration rate, so that the state is considered violent if there are a lot of guys in jail.
This would make sense if all of them were in jail for violent crimes , but I would bet a few of them are driving this violence rating up with nonviolent crime.

  I disagree with this survey in several ways , but I do take its point , that a peaceful society spends less on coping with crime . Less incarceration, less police, less guns and less cameras.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 10:13:07 AM »
The more crimes REPORTED would be the accurate statistic.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 10:31:32 AM »
The more crimes REPORTED would be the accurate statistic.

Yes real accuracy is tough to achieve.

One of their "factors " is the number of police hired, and this would probably automatically increase the number of crimes reported where fewer crimes would be ignored.

So a state might seem more peaceful where the criminals were getting away with more.

When a crime is reported and a policeman is there to insure incarceration this survey would count this thrice. But if the criminal got away with it completely it would count as one if reported and zero if not reported.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 10:43:20 AM »
If you go to the Netherlands or Japan,  where they have fewer police per inhabitant, it is safer than most places in the US.
Anyone who has lived there will tell you this.

We incarcerate far many people than any developed country, and we have more crime than almost all of them. What we do, does not work.

When the Feds gave Pell Grants to inmates to get a college degree, the recidivism rates of graduates fell way below that of inmates of similar abilities.
When the Republican'ts and other deluded politicians stopped giving Pell Grants, the recidivism rose again.

I recall one Florida representative who said, "It I want my son to go to college, then all I need to do is to get him to rob a liquor store."

I understand the logic, but it is purely negative. Most people would never send their son to do this, because robbing liquor stores is very dangerous: the son could be wounded for life or killed.

The argument was that, since we do not give free education, room and board to non-criminals, it is not proper to give it to inmates, who already get the room and board free.  They were thinking of this in terms of negative results, because that is what people with negative mentalities do.

They did not consider that the number of crimes and crime victims and money spent on incarceration would all fall as a result of Pell Grants for inmates.

I have taught in a prison, and the inmates I had as students were the very best students I ever had anywhere. Nearly all not only read the materials assigned, they understood why the assignment made sense, suggested improvements and we have very intense intellectual discussions about the lessons. 




"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2015, 11:40:39 AM »
  I heard something about this yesterday on NPR , let me see if I can find it.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2015, 11:41:27 AM »
What you saw was about a NY State pilot program, I saw it.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2015, 12:36:51 PM »


"We think this is a small, small investment that will pay extraordinary dividends," said Education Secretary Arne Duncan.
The Plan To Give Pell Grants To Prisoners

The Obama administration unveiled a pilot program Friday morning that will once again give some prisoners access to Pell Grants, a form of federal student aid.

https://www.facebook.com/NPR


This was on "All Things Considered"

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Tricky survey of violence
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2015, 12:43:37 PM »
I agree with this.  It is beneficial to the inmates and the public to provide the opportunity for them to become employable somewhere other than in junkyards, traveling carnivals.  and other poorly paid, dead end jobs.

We call prisons "correctional facilities", but too little is done to correct anyone.
Putting prisons in solitary is far more likely to drive them insane than to correct them.

Some right wingers and other demented types say that they are glad that people who go to prison are brutalized by other prisoners as well as guards. This is because they see prison as revenge for the crime or simply a way to rid the society of stupid, crazy and uneducated people. "Christians" thinks that it is well and proper to brutalize, maim and even kill people for defying a cop, even though there are sure to be unreasonable and bullying cops. We have just passed a period in which our military was ordered to bust down the doors of Iraqis in the middle of the night and take them off to jail and torture them. And who gets preference when the cops do the hiring?  Those who have been in the military, who have spent a year or more acting the role of the Gestapo against people whose language they did not understand and often people who were not capable of telling the military that they were not the person that was sought after.

Revenge is not a proper attitude for a peaceful society. Violence and retribution only produce more of the same.

There are, of course, psychopaths, and there is not much that can be done to correct them, at least not all of them and at least not at present.

But creating psychopaths is often what prisons do, and that is counter productive.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 02:34:45 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."