Author Topic: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role  (Read 4297 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
by Ivan Eland, September 01, 2015
Print This | Share This
Rather than a contest between two or three viable candidates, U.S. presidential elections have historically been a referendum on the administration holding power. With at least some awareness of this fact, Republican candidates are busy criticizing President Barack Obama’s foreign policy and desperately trying to link Hillary Clinton, his former Secretary of State and still the most likely Democratic nominee, to it (for example, beating the inconsequential Benghazi incident to death). Obama can be faulted for many bad policies domestically – for example, increased government intrusion into the health care market, a massive pork barrel "stimulus" program, and socialization of some of the big American car companies – and an unneeded war to overthrow Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi that has brought chaos and terrorism to that country and destabilized surrounding nations. However, Obama cannot be blamed for the rise of Iran in the Persian Gulf region and the heretofore acceleration of its nuclear weapons program.

The fifth anniversary of Obama declaring that the U.S. combat mission in Iraq had ended should make us rewind even farther back to George W. Bush’s invasion of that country, which aggravated both of these major problems with Iran. Before this invasion, Lt. Gen. William Odom (Ret.), the general that was Ronald Reagan’s blunt-talking chief of the National Security Agency, was one of the few military men to oppose what turned out to be a predictable disaster. Although many military men are well versed military operations and tactics, fewer do strategy well – the late Odom was one of them. Even in the hysteria after 9/11 that led to the invasion of Iraq, Odom courageously objected to that invasion for the same reason that he had opposed the Vietnam War: such a war would help the main American adversary. In the Cold War, it was the Soviet Union, and in the Persian Gulf, it was Iran. Odom’s reluctance to fight these questionable conflicts shows that all wars are not patriotic or even smart. Odom couldn’t have been more prescient about either conflict.

And although the number of public voices objecting to Bush’s military adventure were few, many experts in the region certainly raised their eyebrows about Bush’s plan to democratize Iraq uusing military power and then use the example to create a domino effect in the Middle East. Iraq was probably one of the least likely candidates for democracy in the Middle East because of its historically ruthless political culture and because, as prior and subsequent events demonstrated, it is an artificial country with severe ethno-sectarian cleavages. Even when the president’s own intelligence community blew another one of Bush’s justifications for the alleged preventive military action by concluding that even if Saddam Hussein had reconstituted his chemical and biological weapons – no one believed he had nuclear weapons, the only true weapon of mass destruction – he was not likely to use them unless backed into a corner (read: by a U.S. invasion). The last rationale for the war was that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama bin Laden and the other perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks in al Qaeda, which was preposterous dissembling. And so Bush foolishly marched to war.

A war conducted for no good reason and with little thought to the predictable and adverse unintended strategic consequences fulfilled Odom’s prediction of a resurgent, yet uneasy, Iran. In the Persian Gulf, overthrowing Saddam in Iraq removed the major counterbalance to the much larger and more populous Iran. Also, Bush’s lack of respect for non-nuclear Iraq made Iran accelerate its nuclear program to keep the same thing from happening to it. Obama, with a nuclear agreement containing a good inspection regime for enforcement has now put that nuclear program in the deep freeze for at least 10 to 15 years. Even though Congress’ rejection of the agreement likely would make Iran race toward getting a bomb as the international sanctions regime fell apart, Israel and some of Iran’s other enemies, supporting such a rejection, apparently aren’t worried as much about an Iranian nuclear weapon as they are Iran’s rise as a powerful regional adversary. A nixing of the agreement might result in the United States eventually bombing Iran, which would weaken their main regional adversary.

The Republicans complain about Obama not doing enough to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear bomb nor enough to blunt Iran’s increasing regional influence in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen, yet one of their own – George W. Bush – had a big hand in aggravating these problems in the first place. On the campaign trail, Republican candidate Jeb Bush recently became red-faced and flummoxed when a college student reminded him that ISIS originated as a derivative from opposition to his brother’s invasion of Iraq. Yet another unintended consequence of that same fiasco, however, is the rise of Iran and the acceleration of its nuclear program, which the Democrats should mention to the Republicans. But Hillary Clinton may not be the best candidate to do so, because while she was in the Senate, she gleefully supported Bush’s idiotic war of aggression. 
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 03:11:46 AM »
That's one theory, I suppose
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 01:17:54 PM »
   Sorry I didn't get to the end of that, I read " the inconsequential Benghazi incident " and stopped right there.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11146
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 01:19:09 PM »
SIRS....didn't you know everything is Bush's fault?
Of course Bush could have blamed Clinton for not killing Bin Laden when he had the chance to prevent 9/11.
And Clinton could have blamed Bush 1 for the CIA creating Bin Laden.
And Bush 1 could have blamed Carter for allowing the Mullahs to come to power.
And Carter could have blamed Ford for hiring Rumsfeld and Cheney....
And blah blah could have blamed blah blah for causing this
and then this could have blamed that for causing it before it existed....
And Adam could have blamed Eve....
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 04:27:24 PM »
   Sorry I didn't get to the end of that, I read " the inconsequential Benghazi incident " and stopped right there.

Pity.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2015, 04:34:00 PM »
No one but the rabid right thinks Benghazi was worth all the bluster.

Bush left Obama with the worst mess in American history. Two wars and a collapsing economy, Then the Republicans did everything to sabotage every solution he tried.
And still he prevailed. FUCK the damned Republican'ts and the horse they rode in on!
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 08:59:07 PM »
   Sorry I didn't get to the end of that, I read " the inconsequential Benghazi incident " and stopped right there.

Pity.

You think "inconsequential" is a good description of the Benghazi killings?

Do you think that this author makes up for this later in the article?

I will read it since you seem to be recommending it twice.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2015, 09:07:17 PM »
No one but the rabid right thinks Benghazi was worth all the bluster.


The single reason to call the Bengazi incident "inconsequential" is that it is political harm to Senator, SoS, and Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton to discuss her role in it.

Leaving her entirely out of this , the Benghazi killings were a failure of intelligence , poor preparation, administration deafness to an ambassadors concerns, loss of face and resources and   persons , the exposure of secret programs and hidden friends, possibly the ending of a secret anti AlQueda program.

Is it possible to discuss how bad that incident was without mention of the Secretary of State at all?

I would be willing to try.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2015, 10:25:27 PM »
by Ivan Eland, September 01, 2015


All right , I read it , but calling the Bengasi execution of an ambassador "inconsequential " still makes my hair itch.

I disagree with a lot of it , and I have heard most of this from other places , it seems like an orthodox viewpoint by now.

Meaning many agree with it.

But I don't.

There was no peace with Iraq to be ruined by invasion, there was no peace in Iraq to be ruined by invasion, if the invasion made things worse it is a matter of degree and not of kind.

  Saddam Hussein had a proven history of making and using poison gas , and he was at war with his own citizens with it from time to time , if he was left alone and released from sanction there is no reason to think he would behave himself differently than his history.

   There was a war within Iraq against any ands all that might have been friends to democracy , or indeed any that didn't support Saddam fully, Saddam was draining a swamp bigger than the Okefenokee just to reduce the hiding places of his opponents , not caring that this was an ecological disaster , he was set to exterminate Swamp Arabs and Kurds .

    Was there any reason to expect Saddam to behave himself nicely at our back while our Army and Airforce was busy in Afghanistan? I don't think so , while we were busy there he would have a great chance to stab at our backs. I think a dearth of imagination is a serious problem when evaluating this situation, when playing chess does one consider each move singly?

    About the WMD also, we not only found a lot less than GWB expected to find , we found less than anyone expected to find. The warehouse full of yellowcake being an exception. Where did all that stuff go? Saddam expelled all the inspectors well before the clean up was complete, did he continue to disarm himself while there was no one to observe?

    The point made that Iran is ramping up its atomic bomb program because of the fate of Saddam Hussein seems very contrary to me. Didn't they hate Saddam himself enough to build a bomb ?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 04:01:58 AM »
Spot on, Plane.  It really is amazing to see such an effort to paint Bush as this completely reckless/devious/myopic figure.  He had his faults, but they were largely domestic.  The conclusions H provides, with some of these commentaries, definitely paints one side of the canvas, while many others could provide alternative conclusions, based on a myriad of other facts that go largely unreported, under-reported, or simply ignored

I've accepted the premise that there was more intel available that would question the status of Saddam's WMD, that we were not privy too.  Bush and his folks were, and they made a judgement call.  One that in hindsight, was the right one, AT THE TIME.  Alas, every aspect that Bush and his team warned us that could happen, if we were to pull out pre-maturely, has come home to roost.  So, while one can argue that the rise of Isis is related to the repercussions following the 2nd Iraq war that Bush initiated, it was actually taken into account, with the hopes that any subsequent Administration would at the very least, understand the potential for a growing threat, and not just pull the rug out from under all those that sacrificed what we fought for

It would appear that Obama & Co, could care less....and now we're seeing the results of that carelessness
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 09:47:17 AM »
The Benghazi thing was simply an accident. The death toll was inconsequential when compared to all the wars mongered incompetently by Cheney and Juniorbush.

The fact it that the stupid invasion of Iraq set off a huge number of events that have been very bad for this country. The country was lead down a greased hole which it is impossible to climb out of by warmongering profiteering  schemers who have made their fortunes and now arte blaming Obama for the consequences of trying to climb out of the greased hole they caused us to jump into.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 10:20:33 AM »
The fact it that the stupid invasion of Iraq set off a huge number of events that have been very bad for this country.

and the other fact was that it was foreseen & predicted, IF we pulled our troops out too soon
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 11:04:35 AM »
The fact it that the stupid invasion of Iraq set off a huge number of events that have been very bad for this country.

and the other fact was that it was foreseen & predicted, IF we pulled our troops out too soon

Who agreed to the timeline for our pullout with the Iraqis? Who agreed that any changes (extensions) to that timeline had to be agreed to by us AND the Iraqis? That agreement from them to let us stay wasn't very likely, and in fact wasn't granted, so we were bound to leave by the date stipulated by (drum roll, please) Bushco. So if we pulled out too soon, let's make sure the proper blame is given to Bush/Cheney/et al.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 11:36:31 AM »
Congress agreed on the date of the pullout. Republicans voted to approve it.

It was not assumed that the Iraqi Army, composed of Shiites, would cut and run whenever attacked. The military swore that they were capable, and they were not. You want to blame someone, blame them.

Juniorbush and Cheney made the mistake by invading and an even worse mistake by screwing it up. Most of the blame is theirs.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Republican Candidates Bashing Obama Over Iran Forget Bush’s Role
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 03:26:27 PM »
The fact it that the stupid invasion of Iraq set off a huge number of events that have been very bad for this country.

and the other fact was that it was foreseen & predicted, IF we pulled our troops out too soon

Who agreed to the timeline for our pullout with the Iraqis? Who agreed that any changes (extensions) to that timeline had to be agreed to by us AND the Iraqis? That agreement from them to let us stay wasn't very likely, and in fact wasn't granted, so we were bound to leave by the date stipulated by (drum roll, please) Bushco. So if we pulled out too soon, let's make sure the proper blame is given to Bush/Cheney/et al.

Let's start with the premice, in that it is signifcantly flawed, in that it was Bush/Cheney that threw up all the warning signs of what a premature pull out could, and now has come to fruition, due to Obama's having not just prematurely pulled the troops out, set the date they'd be coming out, and did not leave any residual force, that he absolutely could have, had he pushed for it, as we had done in many other post-war arrangements.  Hell, we still have troops stationed in countries following WWII.  Iraq was stabilizing.  Even Oblather tried to claim how great Iraq had become, just prior to his blowing it with pulling out prematurely

The 2nd is the notion that Bush/Cheney couldn't have made it any clearer that setting any formal date to leave simply was giving our enemy an exact time frame for simply bunkering down a little, and to be unleashed shortly after that.  Point being, under Bush and the new Iraqi Government, we had the ability to stay in for whatever was required to fully train their forces and transition the Iraqi government, for complete takeover, on their part.  Instead, Obama takes over, and right on cue, preceeds to let the Iraqis know we're leaving, regardless of their status.  ISIS & AlQeada couldn't have been happier, I imagine, and all those who fought so bravely, and gave their lives in that mission, has been made all in vain now.  Bravo Oblather
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle