The Party of Hate!

[Plane]

If that is what she believes, then it is true for her.

It is not up to you, me or the government.

So there is no objective truth, it is entirely subjective.

The government can prosecute a fetus killer if the mother is unwilling to have the fetus killed , and they call it manslaughter or murder.

They can prosecute a fetus killer if he has not obtained the proper license from the AMA and state, they can call this malpractice , practice without license , manslaughter or murder.

You and I could be drafted to the unfortunate Jury where the fetal killer might defend his action.

Making this always at least potentially a matter that involves you, me, the government and  the child and the child's mother.

Then of course we gotta consider how the laws and regulations get written, that is us too.

[hnumpah]

LOL...

If I were called to serve on a jury in such a case, the only consideration is the law in effect at the time and place the act took place. If, under the law, it's a decision legally arrived at and legally carried out, sorry, it's legal.

That's the same standard I would apply to taking a life under any other circumstances.


If all that support is out there, why isn't it working? Why are kids still being born into poverty and despair, to mothers who don't want them? You would think they would be thrilled to give them up to someone who would care for them. Maybe the message isn't getting out.

The local church can send Bible thumping door-knockers to ignore my 'No Soliciting' signs on a regular basis and stuff tracts in my door, but I've never heard or seen one word about outreach to unwed mothers. If they are so concerned about saving babies, maybe they should concentrate on that instead of annoying me.

[Plane]

  The law is an ass.

  Not always , but often enough that the necessity of the law is regrettable.
  And Shakespeare gets a chuckle.

  I might have inserted here the website I know about that explains jury nullification, except that you in particular would rather I didn't.

     The law is deficient in one very important way that affects this question, and several others.

    The law includes no firm and clear definition of a person.

[hnumpah]

Oh go ahead, I'm familiar with jury nullification. Not necessarily in favor of it, probably not something I would push for unless I felt particularly strongly about the case.

Depending on your locale, yes, the law does vary as to when a fetus becomes a person. The most common standard I am familiar with is, has the infant drawn a breath? This can be determined, if necessary, by an autopsy examination post mortem to determine if the infant was stillborn, or if it died after birth. Under some state laws, up until the point of drawing breath, the fetus is not considered a human being. There is, as far as I know, no national standard, and since I have had no reason to look it up, I have no idea what the Georgia standard is. Shouldn't be hard to find, though.

One of the nice things is such matters are left to the individual states, as they should be.

[sirs]

I do drop by from time to time and take a quick look through the thread topics to see if anything interests me enough to read and, possibly, respond. Usually I just move on. It has gotten so sparse in here, one can pretty much look at the title and who started the thread and know what it's going to be. Mostly it's the same old bullshit.

I've been seeing this one for a few days - The Party of Hate! (one must not forget to add the obligatory exclamation point, C4's favorite punctuation) - and, seeing who started the thread, I've given it a pass. I quit bothering to look at C4's crap long ago. To me, he's noise.

Anyway, that title keeps coming back, The Party of Hate! Kinda nagged at me. The more I thought about it...

Well, here's my take on it.

C4, you and the others in here only have to look at your thread titles to get an idea who The Party of Hate is. Muzzies? Really? Making fun of a murdered hitchhiker? Not hard to see which way you lean.

But I digress. Okay, so which party candidate is calling for a fence along our southern border? Which one is calling for barring Muslims? Which party keeps promising, not to reform Obamacare and the health care system, but to repeal it, without offering an alternative? Which party wants to force women to pay for making the mistake of getting pregnant by forcing them to have the babies - with no provisions for caring for those unwanted children, born more often than not to mother s who have no father in the picture and no means to support the child? Which party is trying to prevent people who are 'different' (the LGBT community) from having the same rights as the 'straight' people? The list goes on, but I'd say if you want to brand one party as The Party of Hate, you'd have to look at the Republican party.

That said, I can't figure out why I bother to keep l looking in here. Hell, even BT seems to have given up on the place. It's always C4 posting stupid pictures, Sirs and X calling names, Plane - well, Plane tries to maintain an even keel, but I hate chasing off site links. Kimba is about the only one I look in on. This used to be a great place, a lot of great members, plenty of topics, opinions, things to talk about. Now it's beyond dying, it's dead. I see guests looking all the time, but never see any join in, and I don't wonder why - if they look and see what I see when I drop in, who can blame them for moving on?

Ok, time to deal with the aborted baby in the room.  I hadn't had time to properly respond to this earlier, but I'm going to leave thus up for me to "work on" in order to respond appropriately

1st....about this forum; No, it's not what it used to be.  Not close.  Is it dead?  Of course not, or we wouldn't be posting still, and Bt wouldn't be managing it.  It is, as he always explained, what we make it.  For those who truly want to debate issues, it's a debate forum.  For those who want to vent, its a rant forum.  For those who don't have the ability to debate issues regarding policies and peoples they don't agree with, its a name calling forum.  What we lack in quantity of posters, we more than make up for in the quality of the postings (at least for those who choose the debate style forum)

2nd....which brings us to Hnumpah.  You may not know this H, or didn't notice, given our rather volatile history, whenever WMD's are brought up, but I have made a conscious effort to respond to any of your postings with a goal of trying to be respectful & civil, as possible.  Now, its imperative that you grasp that I'm neither putting words in your mouth, nor assigning some false position you've adopted.  My comments are directly related to what I've perceived & observed over time, just as your comments directed at this forum and other posters, are what you perceive.  With all your qualities of applying criticism to all parties, and not trying to play favorites, you do have one achilles heel....you become extremely defensive when a position you've taken is criticized.  You tend to lash out....irrationally at times, with comments like "trying to put words in my mouth".  We have alot of things we actually agree on.....but.....since I'm a proud conservative, that's apparently a big strike in your book, since you appear to despise conservatives, and as such, I think you've pre-judged me a tad too early, & more so overtly.  Again, just my perception.

3rd....which brings us to the issue before us....who is the party of hate.  The cartoon describes the point quite well., while your cherry picking of particulars, like what Trump wants to do, (who is no conservative, btw).  It's not some blanket ban of "muzzies", its simply a temporary hold on those coming here from nations known to us to be a haven for Islamic Terrorists.  Let me ask you this question.....do you not believe we are at war with a radicalized version of militant Islam??  THAT is a far greater concern to the safety & security of this country than the ruse of global warming.  But I digress.  You mention Obamacare, which should ABSOLUTELY BE REPEALED, and yes, there are plans ready to be implemented in its stead, but they aren't run by the Government.  That's the kicker.  I live and breathe the healthcare industry.  I'm witness to the significant degrading in the quality of care, by precisely the mechanisms of Obamacare.  It can not be reformed, so long as Government is in charge of it....period.  That's not hate.  That is die-hard concern for the well being of those who are sick, injured, and in need.  Obamacare had no design to improve the quality of care or bring down healthcare costs.  It's primary function was to dismantle the private sector health, and force more people onto Government services.  And the real kicker is that it was designed to fail, so the cry could go out that we simply need to go to some asinine single party payer system where guess who's in charge?....that's right that bureaucratic nightmare referred to as the Federal Government.  And what you perceive as hatred of poor women who made some mistake by getting pregnant, to folks like myself, the idea of supporting the killing of an innocent unborn child is beyond hate.....beyond abhorrent.   And yes, we do have a multitude of long waiting lists, praying to adopt a child, yet many.....here's a shocker....laws/regulations have been put in place to make adopting next to impossible, especially if the child is of a different race

No, H...I'm afraid the folks in charge of the party of hate, are those that hate any differing opinion or position than their own, and will do whatever is necessary to silence it.  But perhaps hate is the wrong word.  Perhaps what's more appropriate is the party of intolerance. 

In any case, at no time have I tried to cast false intentions upon you, called you names, or put words in your mouth.  As i said, I respect your efforts at being even handed at criticizing both parties.  You may have missed the many times I've criticized the GOP, including Bush.  I think you may have missed the many times both Cu4 & Plane have been overtly critical of the GOP.  Probably because they're conservative, would be my guess.  Point is, that even conservatives can be rational and critical, of the party that supposedly supports their ideology.  So, while you may despise both political parties, the GOP is not the "party of hate" here.   Not Cruz nor any of the other candidates that dropped out.  Nor does Trump bring hate to the table.  He does bring a sense of bullying though.  We'll see how far that carries him beyond NY

[Plane]

One of the nice things is such matters are left to the individual states, as they should be.

Yes , this would be a step forward in this case.

But there is no state standard that defines a person either.

It is not inconceivable that the government could put an upper limit on the age that a personhood would be recognized.
Why not?
It would solve a few problems.

[Xavier_Onassis]

But there is no state standard that defines a person either.
==================================================

Get effing SERIOUS!

Look at your driver's license.  Does it not say "Date of Birth"?
In what state does it state "Date of Conception" or "Date of Personhood"?

You are not a citizen until you are born. You are not a legal person until you are a citizen. And each and every state references that date: the Date of birth.

Damn, you clowns are dense.

[Plane]

This brings us right back to Dred Scott.

Where the SCOTUS determined that there was no civil rights for people who were not white enough to be full citizens.

This is no better logic than saying there is no person until first breath.

It is practically the same thing.

We should all beware of it , there is nothing about what we are that makes us unassailably human before the law.

[hnumpah]

Okay, first of all, let me make this clear: I do not necessarily agree with every law on the books, whether it is regarding (to name a few favorite subjects in here) gun control, abortion, immigration, drugs, etc cetera. HOWEVER, I do take the stance that the law is the law. If you choose to break it, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. If you don't like it, then work to change it. Otherwise, live with it.

I spent years traveling to various countries overseas, some with more lenient laws than here, some with much more strict laws. I spent over a year and a half living in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia under Sharia'a law. I have always found it is a good idea to know what the local laws are as they apply to you, and follow them, whether you like them or not - the punishments for breaking them can be rather strict. Like it or not, their country, their laws, period.

So here's my stance on abortion - it's legal. I don't care for it, I don't think it's the best option, but it's legal. Personally, I don't feel strongly enough about it either way to go poundIng on my congresscritter's door about it. I do see both sides of the argument, but as far as I'm concerned, it's not worth me, personally, getting riled up over it.

Sirs, no sweat, my comment about trying to put words in my mouth wasn't directed at you. By the way, found those WMD's yet?

Now about the original subject, the party of hate thing. I cruise around a bit, visit a few other sites, and here's what I find. The people posting and tossing around names like muzzies, ragheads, camel jockeys, etc (those are a few of the more polite terms) almost invariably identify themselves as Republican or conservative. Most, I find, have no first hand experience with Arab or Muslim culture, have never actually bothered to spend any time visiting a mosque, or associating with or having any sort of discussions with Arabs or Muslims, or bothered to actually read the Quran in context - by that I mean to take it in the context of the time in which it was written. They tend to get all their information second or third hand from right wing sources that spread a lot of inaccurate, incorrect, and even malicious misinformation about Islam.

These are the same people who jumped on the bandwagon after 9/11, clamoring for the war in Iraq over imagined ties to Al Qaeda, imaginary WMD's, et cetera. We all saw how that turned out. These are the people who couldn't wait, who practically begged the government, here, take away some of our rights to privacy, make us take our shoes off before we get on a plane - torture prisoners in our name - machine gun civilians who just happen to be driving behind contractors on the streets of Iraq.

I'm sorry, I'm just a bit leery of turning this country back over to that crowd again. I don't trust them. Conservatism and the Republican party as I knew it don't seem to exist anymore, and what passes for them today does not represent me.

[Plane]

  Excellent post.

The WMD turns up in Syria.

The same stuff or is it different WMD?

I don't know , I didn't get a copy of the receipt.

I agree that more civility would be an improvement to the Republican party.

But I would not want to leave anyone out of such improvement.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The Republican Party does really, really, really stupid things when it is in power, and tries to prevent any and all change when it is not.

They do not keep the peace, they have failed to keep the country safe, and they have not balanced a budget since Eisenhower. They need to be removed entirely from power until the learn how not to be fuckups.

[hnumpah]

  Excellent post.

The WMD turns up in Syria.

The same stuff or is it different WMD?

I don't know , I didn't get a copy of the receipt.

I agree that more civility would be an improvement to the Republican party.

But I would not want to leave anyone out of such improvement.

I doubt any of the weapons in Syria came from Iraq, at least under Saddam. Iraq and Syria had strained relations since Saddam came to power, and he had accused Syria of plotting to overthrow him and sealed the border. Syria had grown closer to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, another source of tension.

No, the alleged Iraqi WMD's are still missing, if they ever existed at all, which appears more and more unlikely.

I only put it that way to mollify the true believers.

The Republican Party is 'way beyond any repairs more civility could effect.

And just to point out, I wouldn't trust the Democrats any further than could throw them, either. I would hate for someone to lump me in with them just as badly. Maybe worse.

[sirs]

I appreciate the response H, and will only again reference that there's still no proof, what-so-ever, that Bush knew there were no WMD's, but took us to war anyways, completely debunking the notion of Bush lied lied, people died nonsense, not to mention that WMD's were found, both in Iraq and Syria post war, just not near in the #'s that we expected....but that's old news, let's get back to the point of topic....

This quote you provided, is exactly the one that could have been in predominant in the 1700's  "....it's legal. I don't care for it, I don't think it's the best option, but it's legal."  You reference different circumstances and time, but that's largely to avoid the aborted baby in the room.  To folks like myself, who would see the killing of an unborn child beyond hate, would also be the ones fighting for the freedom of slaves, despite it "being legal".  Based on what you've said, its apparent you're not a mass supporter of abortion, but you don't seem to have an issue with it, because, as you said, its legal, which is fine.  The issue I have with you is how overtly callous you are at those don't support it.  We do have mechanisms to take care of an unwanted child.  We do have long waiting lists for adoption.  For those women who chose reckless irresponsible behavior that result in an unwanted pregnancy, its not trying to "punish her" to give birth.  Her "punishment" would be in watching that child being adopted by a family that truly wants a child.  That she'd have lo live with for the rest of her life.  No, the true hatred is in disposing of an unborn child, because it would become an inconvenient problem

Now, as it relates to the Muslim issue......I absolutely have zero experience in traveling anywhere, even remotely Islamic.  My only true connections with Islam are some of my fellow co-workers, who are proudly Muslim in their faith, and wonderful people to work with.  This is the frequent area where the attempt to discredit or condemn folks like myself, or perhaps even Cu4, is by lumping the issue of the war we have on radicalized Jihadists into a supposed war against all of the Muslim world.  Not that is your intent, simply pointing out a frequent effort by folks like xo, and other leftists.  It's much like when illegal immigration comes up, the cry is how folks like myself don't support immigration, when its not about immigration, its about ILLEGAL immigration.  Same scenario here, and speaking for myself. its not about Muslims (or muzzies), its about radical militant Muslims, who've decided to mutate the message of Islam, to justify every sort of killing to innocent men women, and children, who have not converted or agreed to be subjugated by their twisted reading of the Koran.  I may have missed the answer to the question I posed to you earlier...do you not believe we are at war with a radicalized version of militant Islam??.  That's an important answer to any follow-up

Yes, the GOP has many a moment of incivility, disrespect, and yes, even hate.  But if this is an issue about comparing parties...the one that embraced the KKK in its founding, and the one that currently supports any and all means to shut down speech & constitutionally protected actions they don't agree with, is not the GOP, I'm afraid to say

[hnumpah]

Sorry, I'm a callous son of a bitch. If all these wonderful mechanisms are in place, all these people are out there waiting for the chance to jump in with any troubled, pregnant girl and give her the emotional, physical, medical, psychological and financial support she needs to carry her pregnancy to term and deliver a baby for them to adopt, where are they? Who are they? How do these women find them? Hey, if i'm selling product X, I want to advertise, get the word out, hey, there's this over here, come see me and get some. For a mother of a baby she doesn't want and is considering what to do with it, I don't see any outreach. The doorbanging Bible thumpers don't leave tracts or information about anything like that. The antiabortion crowd want to shut down the clinics and write angry letters and wave bloody pictures, but how many of them do you see adopting crack babies? And C4 wants to call me a hypocrite?

Moving on - we are at war with terrorists, yes, and they claim to be Islamic. Yes, we need to do something about illegal immigration. But the people that go on about both issues, the ones, as I said before, who nowadays tend to identify themselves as Republican, conservative, right wing - these are the ones I find most likely to use the racial and religious slurs, the bigotry, and propose the most outlandish solutions. I don't forget, also, that it was under their administration that the American people were conned into giving up some of their freedoms and rights, or sending troops to fight and die in an unnecessary and unjustified war that we are still paying the price for, in physically and psychologically disabled veterans, in equipment left behind to be captured and used by our enemies, and the ill will against Americans we left behind in the aftermath. We had a much better chance of a quicker, positive outcome in Afghanistan if we had stayed focused on our objective there, rather than making up excuses to go into Iraq.

And that's where the Republicans lost me. It has been downhill from there.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The Republican Party should apologize for being such dicks.
It should hide its face in shame and beg forgiveness.