Author Topic: I Know You Are, But What Am I?  (Read 13051 times)

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Henny

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I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« on: March 11, 2007, 03:47:01 AM »
U.S., Iran Trade Barbs in Direct Talks
The Associated Press

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI and QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA

March 10, 2007
In their first direct talks since the Iraq war began, U.S. and Iranian envoys traded harsh words and blamed each other for the country's crisis Saturday at a one-day international conference that some hoped would help end their 27-year diplomatic freeze.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki opened the conference with an appeal for all participants to help ease his country's plight and prevent the violent conflict here from spilling over into the entire Middle East.

But the conference underscored the wide gulf between American and Iranian views over the nature of the crisis and the ways to end it.

During the talks, U.S. envoy David Satterfield pointed to his briefcase which he said contained documents proving Iran was arming Shiite Muslim militias in Iraq.

'Your accusations are merely a cover for your failures in Iraq,' Iran's chief envoy Abbas Araghchi shot back, according to an official familiar to the discussions who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.

The U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, only said that American delegates exchanged views with the Iranians 'directly and in the presence of others' during talks, which he described as 'constructive and businesslike.'

But Labid Abbawi, a senior Iraqi Foreign Ministry official who attended the meeting, confirmed that an argument broke out between the Iranian and American envoys. He would not elaborate.

Before the talks, U.S. officials said the Baghdad conference would allow all sides to spell out their positions frankly and pave the way for more substantive discussions on resolving the Iraq crisis.

Al-Maliki, a Shiite, appealed for international help to sever networks aiding extremists and warned that Iraq's growing sectarian bloodshed could spill across the Middle East.

Khalilzad also urged nations bordering Iraq _ which include Syria and Iran _ to increase their assistance to al-Maliki's government, saying 'the future of Iraq and the Middle East is the defining issue of our time.'

'(Iraq) needs support in this battle that not only threatens Iraq but will spill over to all countries in the region,' al-Maliki said.

Al-Maliki urged for help in stopping financial support, weapon pipelines and 'religious cover' for the relentless attacks of car bombings, killings and other attacks that have pitted Iraq's Sunnis against majority Shiites.

Underscoring the security crisis, at least two mortar shells exploded near the Foreign Ministry where the talks were held but caused no casualties. A suicide car bomber also killed 20 people in the Shiite militia stronghold of Sadr City.

The participants at the talks included all of Iraq's neighbors _ Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait _ as well as the U.S., Russia, France, Britain, China, Bahrain, Egypt, the U.N., the Organization of the Islamic Conference and the Arab League.

At a news conference after the meeting, Araghchi restated Tehran's demands for a clear timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces, which he insisted had made Iraq a magnet for extremists from across the Muslim world.

'For the sake of peace and stability in Iraq ... we need a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign forces,' said Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister for legal and international affairs.

'Violence in Iraq is good for no country in the region,' he said. 'Security of Iraq is our security and stability in Iraq is a necessity for peace and security in the region.'

Araghchi said he had no face-to-face, private talks with Khalilzad and that the discussions were 'within the framework of the meeting.' He spoke of 'very good interaction by all the delegations.'

Khalilzad, too, called the meeting a 'first step.'

'The discussions were limited and focused on Iraq and I don't want to speculate after that,' said the Afghan-born Khalilzad, who greeted Araghchi in the Persian language.

He told reporters in a conference call after the session that he took it as a good sign Iran and Syria both pledged support for a stable Iraq, including reconciliation among Iraq's factions.

'I think one has to be cautious about exaggerating the impact of what has happened, but what has happened in my view cannot be dismissed,' Khalilzad said. 'It was a good meeting.'

Nevertheless, the discussions illustrated the deep differences between Tehran and Washington, although each insists that full-scale civil war is in neither country's interest.

'Regarding security, we have channels that we can put to use,' Araghchi told The Associated Press. 'We are ready for any help we can give to Iraq.'

Reza Amiri, a senior official at the Iranian Foreign Ministry, dismissed American claims that Tehran was destabilizing Iraq by arming Shiite militias. The U.S. military has insisted that Iranian weapons, including a new generation of powerful roadside bombs, have killed more than 170 U.S. and coalition troops here since mid-2004.

'They're lying because it is just not true,' Amiri told the AP. 'Iraq's borders with Iran are the most secure of Iraqi borders. The Iraqi government has not even once said Iran is interfering in its affairs.'

But Amiri said Saturday's conference was 'very positive' because 'everyone promised to cooperate with each other and to control the borders.'

The delegates proposed an 'expanded' follow-up meeting, which could include the G-8 nations and others, in Istanbul, Turkey, next month. Iraqi officials, however, say they will urge that the next meeting take place again in Baghdad.

For Iran, opening more direct contacts with Washington could help promote their shared interests in preventing full-scale war between Sunnis and Shiites. Iran has influence among Shiite political parties with ties to militias.

'Security of Iraq is our security and stability in Iraq is a necessity for peace and security in the region,' Araghchi said at the news conference.

The Baghdad talks come as the U.S. administration has toughened its rhetoric on Iran and flexed its muscles at the U.N. over Tehran's disputed nuclear program. The tough talk has been accompanied by the arrival of two U.S. carrier battle groups near the Iranian shores in the Persian Gulf.

Iranians increasingly fear that a U.S. attack is imminent despite American insistence to the contrary.

The U.S. and Iran severed diplomatic ties after Iranian militants seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran following the 1979 Islamic revolution. In the late 1990s, U.S. and Iranian envoys were part of an eight-nation group studying Afghanistan's troubles under the Taliban, and both nations took part in meetings to establish an interim Afghan government after the Taliban's fall in 2001.

In 2000, a four-member U.S. congressional delegation met with Iran's parliament speaker, Mehdi Karroubi, and others for informal talks during a worldwide gathering of lawmakers in New York.

Iranian analyst Saeid Leylaz said the Baghdad conference would be a non-starter if it's not followed by a one-on-one dialogue between Washington and Tehran.

'How can you expect us to talk to them about Iraq's security without Iran's security being part of the talks?' said Leylaz.

He said only a 'constructive and strategic dialogue between Tehran and Washington' would resolve the Iraq problem.

'Tehran could help temporarily in Iraq,' said Leylaz, 'but for an everlasting solution, talks should comprise of security guarantees for the whole region,' said Leylaz.

'The Americans must understand the question of security is a matter of life and death for Iran,' he said. And no where is that security as vital for Iran as on its borders with Iraq.

___

Associated Press writers Brian Murphy in Baghdad and Anne Gearan in Washington contributed to the story.

http://www.topix.net/content/ap/3610080076233541641230903562873805129871

Lanya

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2007, 03:54:34 AM »
Do we no longer have any skilled negotiators?  U.S. envoy David Satterfield doesn't appear to have done well.
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sirs

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2007, 01:41:14 PM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 04:29:15 PM »
Do we no longer have any skilled negotiators?  U.S. envoy David Satterfield doesn't appear to have done well.


   What could he have given ?

sirs

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 05:06:35 PM »
Do we no longer have any skilled negotiators?  U.S. envoy David Satterfield doesn't appear to have done well.

What could he have given ?

Our lives as a good will sacrafice to Allah?  Our subjugation to Islam?  Israel on a platter?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2007, 04:43:20 PM »
Quote
Our lives as a good will sacrafice to Allah?  Our subjugation to Islam?  Israel on a platter?

Let's see:

The United States could pay for damages done to Iran by US attacks on Iranian oilfields in the Iran-Iraq War.

We could apologize for the downing of Iran Air Flight 655 and pay compensation to the families of the Iranian victims (we only ever compensated the non-Iranian victims).

We could be open and frank about allowing (and even supporting) Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran with absolutely no recriminations.

Or we could be complete dumbasses and talk about stupid things like "Israel on a platter" and "subjugation to Islam"   
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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Plane

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2007, 05:15:34 PM »
Quote
Our lives as a good will sacrafice to Allah?  Our subjugation to Islam?  Israel on a platter?

Let's see:

The United States could pay for damages done to Iran by US attacks on Iranian oilfields in the Iran-Iraq War.


No If we accept responsibility for Saddams Husseins decisions we woud then owe more than we could pay , thi makes no more sense than accepting the cst of all the Aiatola Humainis decisions.

Quote
We could apologize for the downing of Iran Air Flight 655 and pay compensation to the families of the Iranian victims (we only ever compensated the non-Iranian victims).

Hasn't this already been offered?  This could be given but it is not a big part of the problem.

Quote
We could be open and frank about allowing (and even supporting) Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran with absolutely no recriminations.

No this is a terrible idea and it is the reverse of the truth if that matters , it was WMD that got us interested in smackng Saddam down . Where is our tank you from the Iranians for that?
 
Quote
Or we could be complete dumbasses and talk about stupid things like "Israel on a platter" and "subjugation to Islam"   

No I don't expect that our negotiators are being that dense , are you talking about Iran's?

sirs

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 07:30:26 PM »
The United States could pay for damages done to Iran by US attacks on Iranian oilfields in the Iran-Iraq War.

And this is proved how again?  What units, what American ordinance and lauching platforms would you be referring to?


We could apologize for the downing of Iran Air Flight 655 and pay compensation to the families of the Iranian victims

Have we not apologized, and this would amount to accomplishing, what again?


We could be open and frank about allowing (and even supporting) Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran with absolutely no recriminations.

And we could have stopped it, how again??


Or we could be complete dumbasses and talk about stupid things like "Israel on a platter" and "subjugation to Islam"    

I concede my comments were a tad over the top, and not meant to be taken 100% literally.  That is ultimately is the goal of Islamofascists that permeate their country and leadership.  And its not stupid at all, when one considers that's the real agenda.  These token references you cite won't get us a ride in the front of one of their buses, much less slow down their military weapons/explosives shipments into Iraq and Nuclear Bomb production activity.   
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 09:21:40 PM »
The United States could pay for damages done to Iran by US attacks on Iranian oilfields in the Iran-Iraq War.

And this is proved how again?  What units, what American ordinance and lauching platforms would you be referring to?

Well, I wouldn't call them "oil fields" since we only took out some oil platforms in international waters as retaliation for attacks on US shipping. We took out a few ships as well.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 09:43:34 PM »
The United States could pay for damages done to Iran by US attacks on Iranian oilfields in the Iran-Iraq War.

Well, I wouldn't call them "oil fields" since we only took out some oil platforms in international waters as retaliation for attacks on US shipping. We took out a few ships as well.

ahhhhhhhhh, so the implication that the U.S. facilitated and assisted Iraq in the Iran/Iraq war, attacking Iranian oil assets in Iran, completely unprovoked, is a tad......disingenuous?    hmmmmmmmmmmm
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 11:00:45 AM »
Quote
No If we accept responsibility for Saddams Husseins decisions we woud then owe more than we could pay , thi makes no more sense than accepting the cst of all the Aiatola Humainis decisions.

Ummm. We attacked them (meaning the United States).

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Hasn't this already been offered?  This could be given but it is not a big part of the problem.

Not to my knowledge.

Quote
No this is a terrible idea and it is the reverse of the truth if that matters , it was WMD that got us interested in smackng Saddam down . Where is our tank you from the Iranians for that?

We knew Iraq used them on Iran, but our policy was that "Iraq could not lose this war." So after the war we brought no international condemnation on Iraq for using chemical weapons on Iran, despite having knowledge of its use (and possibly encouraging it).

Quote
No I don't expect that our negotiators are being that dense , are you talking about Iran's?

No, I was referring to Sir's nasty reply.




I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
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_JS

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 11:13:31 AM »
Quote
And this is proved how again?  What units, what American ordinance and lauching platforms would you be referring to?

So when I say it I have to provide units, ordnance, and launching platforms - but when Ami says it you believe it whole-heartedly? Thanks.

By the way, I never implied that it was unprovoked, but it wasn't exactly US shipping either. It was Kuwaiti oil tankers with US flags raised on them. The fact that we were helping Iraq is well known. See Operation Praying Mantis as but one example.

Quote
Have we not apologized, and this would amount to accomplishing, what again?

No, and we have not paid compensation to the Iranian families either. It would likely accomplish a warming of relations, if even slightly. It is how diplomacy is done Sirs. It isn't done by slamming your demands on the table and ordering the other side about with empty threats.

Quote
And we could have stopped it, how again??

We could have brought down strong international condemnation on Iraq after they had employed chemical warfare as a tactic. We chose not to, even after the war. We only began condemning them for the production of WMD later, when it was of convenience to us.

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I concede my comments were a tad over the top, and not meant to be taken 100% literally.

I realize that.

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That is ultimately is the goal of Islamofascists that permeate their country and leadership.  And its not stupid at all, when one considers that's the real agenda.

Iran is a sovereign state and your theories on terrorism have no use in diplomacy with a sovereign state.

Quote
These token references you cite won't get us a ride in the front of one of their buses, much less slow down their military weapons/explosives shipments into Iraq and Nuclear Bomb production activity.

This is why we've failed so miserably as a member of the international community under President Bush. People have no understanding of diplomacy. The truth is that we don't even know that the Iranian government is onvolved in Iraq (the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has said so). We certainly don't have the credibility to take a few pieces of shrapnel and strut into Tehran like we own the place.

If you want cooperation from Iran then you need to earn some respect there, because right now you have zero. Both militarily and diplomatically. If you want to battle terrorism down here on Earth in the realms of reality then you need help from the international community to do so.

Otherwise, enjoy contemplating the evils of "Islamofascism" while the rest of the world gives you the one-finger salute.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 11:38:52 AM »
Quote
And this is proved how again?  What units, what American ordinance and lauching platforms would you be referring to?

I never implied that it was unprovoked, but it wasn't exactly US shipping either. It was Kuwaiti oil tankers with US flags raised on them. The fact that we were helping Iraq is well known. See Operation Praying Mantis as but one example.

Yet your "example" specifically gave me the notion how it was attacks in Iran proper, and unprovoked, simply us helping Iraq.  In that scenario you provided, that Ami better clarified, there's absolutely no reason in the world to pay for anything


Quote
Have we not apologized, and this would amount to accomplishing, what again?

No, and we have not paid compensation to the Iranian families either. It would likely accomplish a warming of relations, if even slightly.

Agreed.


It is how diplomacy is done Sirs. It isn't done by slamming your demands on the table and ordering the other side about with empty threats.

Oh, you mean like Iran's President?  Oh wait, soon that threat won't be empty


We could have brought down strong international condemnation on Iraq after they had employed chemical warfare as a tactic. We chose not to, even after the war. We only began condemning them for the production of WMD later, when it was of convenience to us.

Coulda, shoulda, Iraq was its own monster.  I've condemned them from the beginning for their use.  I seriously doubt the timing of any condemnation from the U.S. would amount to anything, after its use.  But you're free to believe otherwise


Iran is a sovereign state and your theories on terrorism have no use in diplomacy with a sovereign state.

So was Germany in the late 30's.  And we see where diplomacy alone got is there


This is why we've failed so miserably as a member of the international community under President Bush. People have no understanding of diplomacy. The truth is that we don't even know that the Iranian government is onvolved in Iraq (the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has said so). We certainly don't have the credibility to take a few pieces of shrapnel and strut into Tehran like we own the place.

Hey, I'm on record as not supporting any military incursions into Iran with out much better validated  intel than we had in Iraq.  Point being, the threat of military force must be real, otherwise diplomacy alone will be an absolute waste of time.  Especially when you're trying to "talk" to someone like the President of Iran, who's already on record as to looking forward to assisting in the destruction of Israel, and has told the UN (A diplomatic organization, last time I checked), to go pound sand as it relates to stopping their nuclear weapons program


If you want cooperation from Iran then you need to earn some respect there, because right now you have zero.

No, it's the other way around, I'm afraid.  Iran neither has nor is to be granted "respect", just because we would like their coopderation.  It has to be earned, and currently their actions, and rhetoric coming from their Government, produces precisely zero
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 11:51:38 AM »
Quote
Yet your "example" specifically gave me the notion how it was attacks in Iran proper, and unprovoked, simply us helping Iraq.  In that scenario you provided, that Ami better clarified, there's absolutely no reason in the world to pay for anything

Right...

Regardless, we're not talking about international law Sirs, but diplomacy. We've violated international law numerous times (and are doing it right this minute as a matter of fact), but you need to separate the two in your mind.

Quote
Oh, you mean like Iran's President?  Oh wait, soon that threat won't be empty

If we don't talk with Iran's leaders we won't understand what is really going on in Tehran. A great deal of the talks will involve assessing the intentions of one's counterparts.

Quote
Coulda, shoulda, Iraq was its own monster.  I've condemned them from the beginning for their use.  I seriously doubt the timing of any condemnation from the U.S. would amount to anything, after its use.  But you're free to believe otherwise

"Iraq was its own monster" - where is my eyeroll button?

Again you are failing to see the issue today. This is about making overtures today. It was asked what we could do with Iran in these talks and I offered suggestions. You're hung up on bullshit from the past and don't understand the ramifications on what these efforts could achieve today.

Quote
So was Germany in the late 30's.  And we see where diplomacy alone got is there

Ah, the Nazi comparisons are coming back again. The failsafe of every side of a debate who no longer has a reasonable argument. Here is a newsflash, Iran is not a fascist state, nor has it annexed any of its neighbors or even territory lost in wars gone by. Iran is not claiming the lands of the ancient Persian Empire or a policy of lebensraum. In fact, we have no real evidence that the Iranian Government has done anything!

So you need to come down to the world of realism for a few minutes and discuss this issue before climbing back into your cave of Arabs and Persians = Nazi fascists.

Quote
Point being, the threat of military force must be real, otherwise diplomacy alone will be an absolute waste of time.

What does that mean?

Quote
Iran neither has nor is to be granted "respect", just because we would like their coopderation.  It has to be earned, and currently their actions, and rhetoric coming from their Government, produces precisely zero

I need that eyeroll button again.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: I Know You Are, But What Am I?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 12:28:20 PM »
By the way, I never implied that it was unprovoked, but it wasn't exactly US shipping either. It was Kuwaiti oil tankers with US flags raised on them.

Ships at sea fly a national flag called an ensign. "US shipping" has always included all ships registered in the US, regardless of the country of origin of their owners. The US protected ships flying the US flag during WWII, even if their owners lived in other countries. Under conventions of international law, the flag flown by a ship determines the source of law to be applied in admiralty cases, regardless of which court has personal jurisdiction over the parties. What changed in the latter half of the twentieth century?

See Operation Praying Mantis as but one example.

Excellent example. That operation was instigated by an Iranian attack on the frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts, hardly a Kuwaiti tanker.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)