A question for those with more knowledge of the Muslim world than I have

[Universe Prince]

Dinesh D'Souza recently said:

We must give up on leftists in America and Europe who will never join our side and instead find common cause with the traditional Muslims who share many of our values and can actually help us defeat radical Islam.

That is from part 4 of D'Souza's series of columns called "The Closing of the Conservative Mind".

My question is: Who are "the traditional Muslims"? D'Souza grew up in India and claims to have studied "the leading thinkers of radical Islam". So I am guessing that he has some group of Muslims in mind when he speaks of "traditional Muslims". However, I have no idea what group that might be. Can anyone shed some light on this?

[_JS]

Wow. That's a peculiar theory he's panhandling, but I do believe I understand what he's talking about.

In general he is talking about "traditional Muslims who share many of our values" which likely refers to the more theologically conservative Sunni Muslims such as those in Saudi Arabia. The values they share would be anti-abortion, dislike of homosexuality, fidelity in marriage, no fornication, conservative dress, etc.

He is tying the culture war in America to the War on Terrorism and saying "look, these Muslims are more like us than the leftists in the United States and Europe, maybe they'll help us." It stems from his theory that the terrorists have a misconception of America as a society of loose moral standards based on Hollywood and liberal societal values peddled by the left. If his theory is true then upstanding Muslims should help upstanding Christians fight.

[Universe Prince]

I find I'm not really buying into his theory that the political left is culturally to blame. There are certain aspects of our culture which don't seem left or right to me but do seem contrary to the culture in predominately Muslim countries. I don't see in the U.S. a big conservative movement, for example, to do away with freedom of religion or freedom of speech. As I understand it, some Muslim countries have laws that can get proselytizing Christians into a lot of trouble. And while Muslim communities where women wear burkas might be offended by American women in bikinis, it seems to me they are also offended by the individual liberty of women in our culture to pursue their own individual economic goals. So, unless Mr. D'Souza is suggesting American conservatives embrace a return to the culture of the 1880s or thereabouts, I think his theory is wrong. But then, maybe by "traditional Muslims" he means Muslims who are okay with individual liberties and equality of women and men. As I understand things, however, those Muslims would be liberal Muslims, not traditional Muslims.

I do believe that we ought to find more Muslims like Irshad Manji to challenge Muslim culture and Islamic fundamentalism, but Irshad Manji is a lesbian, so I doubt she is the sort of Muslim D'Souza is talking about.

[Xavier_Onassis]

"Dogdish" D'Souza is a rather weird ideologue. He is some sort of Oriental Ayn Rand.

The fundamentalist Muslims are none other than the Wahabbi Saudi Arabians, who prefer to live in the XIV Century.

What Juniorbush considers to be fundamentalists are not the House of Saud, because the House of Saud claims to believe in all the Wahabbi fundie bullshit, but can be bribed, with money and the many fun things that money can buy.

The Shiites are much more amenable to change in cultural things, such as the rights of women, modern education and technology, even financial investments. The Wahabbis believe that lending money at interest is a forbidden sin, because, well, Mohammad forbad it. But it is apparently impossible to bribe the ayatollahs, so they get listed as fundies.

Of course, the Pashtuns of Pakistan and their Taliban Pashtun pals in Afghanistan are beyond fundamentalists. They are reactionaries of the most pronouced kind. They don't believe in music, and think that a man should be punished if his beard is too short.

[Michael Tee]

He could have been thinking of the Ismaili followers of the Aga Khan, given his Indian background.  I think with a lot of these right-wing nut-bars, what they're really looking for is the Muslim equivalent of the "Magic Negro," a non-threatening Muslim who will overlook just about every injustice and atrocity of the Western world against Islam and would rather seek their own advancement with the West in oppressing the Muslim world than with their brother and sister Muslims against the West.  "Uncle Tom" Muslims.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The number one Koranic ban that seems to upset modern Western capitalists is the ban on lending money at interest. Development is vastly restricted by this, and the Saudis, Kuwaitis and Emiris have a great variety of rather bogus subterfuges by which they collect and charge interest without being quite so obvious about it. Think Shabbas goy. If God's laws are broken by proxy, they are not broken. How very clever.

In the Bible, Jews are banned in one section from lending money to anyone at interest, but, quite conveniently in another part it merely claims that they are banned from charging interest to fellow Jews. Hence the period in the Late Middle Ages when the major banker in Europe, the unfortunately surnamed Fugger, made the mistake of financing the poorly conceived state of Burgandy and lost most of his fortune.

[_JS]

Let's hold on a minute before we get carried away. I don't agree with D'Souza's theory either, but we ought to be fair to the Muslims as well.

And while Muslim communities where women wear burkas might be offended by American women in bikinis, it seems to me they are also offended by the individual liberty of women in our culture to pursue their own individual economic goals.

Really, the only country where women were required to wear a Burqa was Afghanistan during the Taliban regime. There are some women in Pakistan (especially Waziristan) and India who wear it as well, but it is generally a lighter form of what the west has come to know as the Burqa.

In nearly all Muslim countries this is not required and most women wear the Niqab or Hijab because they feel it is an important part of their religion. Think of it as similar to Protestant women who never wear pants and only wear skirts or dresses or Quaker or Anabaptist men and women who wear "plain clothes."

Islam was very liberating for a lot of women at its time. Islamic women could own property and businesses long before women in other parts of the world. Much of this has to do with Muhammed's first wife Khadija, who was herself a very successful merchant and trader. The Islam of the Taleban is not common throughout the Islamic world and women are not treated that poorly everywhere.

But then, maybe by "traditional Muslims" he means Muslims who are okay with individual liberties and equality of women and men. As I understand things, however, those Muslims would be liberal Muslims, not traditional Muslims.

Judging by his rhetoric on tying the "culture war" to the War on Terror, I'm guessing that is not what he is suggesting.

The fundamentalist Muslims are none other than the Wahabbi Saudi Arabians, who prefer to live in the XIV Century.

There are fundamentalist Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. Both forms have a staunch right wing.

[domer]

I think D'Souza conception of the problem and prescription for action misses the point by a mile. I would define traditional Muslims differently, not by the details of their religious belief but by their orientation to the world in which their religion lives. This is an important distinction, with the aim being to establish a "supra-secular-sacred," a civic belief system within which all diverse groups can live in harmony, that indeed allows that to happen at all, as we have in the United States with our "civic religion." D'Souza amazes me: apparently he's willing to match Muslim orthodoxy (albeit moderate) with his own favored brand of American fundamentalism in what would promise to be a race to the more restrictive, that is, to a worldview in which the integuments strangle rather than give shape, and in so doing exacerbate some of the very problems he intends to ameliorate. The idea is to invite everyone into a big tent, not to stuff everyone into the equivalent of a pup tent.