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Michael Tee

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Happy Anniversary
« on: March 21, 2007, 09:13:41 PM »
Four Years Later... And Counting
Billboarding the Iraqi Disaster
By Anthony Arnove

As you read this, we're four years from the moment the Bush administration launched its shock-and-awe assault on Iraq, beginning 48 months of remarkable, non-stop destruction of that country … and still counting. It's an important moment for taking stock of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Here is a short rundown of some of what George Bush's war and occupation has wrought:

Nowhere on Earth is there a worse refugee crisis than in Iraq today. According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, some two million Iraqis have fled their country and are now scattered from Jordan, Syria, Turkey, and Iran to London and Paris. (Almost none have made it to the United States, which has done nothing to address the refugee crisis it created.) Another 1.9 million are estimated to be internally displaced persons, driven from their homes and neighborhoods by the U.S. occupation and the vicious civil war it has sparked. Add those figures up – and they're getting worse by the day – and you have close to 16% of the Iraqi population uprooted. Add the dead to the displaced, and that figure rises to nearly one in five Iraqis. Let that sink in for a moment.

Basic foods and necessities, which even Saddam Hussein's brutal regime managed to provide, are now increasingly beyond the reach of ordinary Iraqis, thanks to soaring inflation unleashed by the occupation's destruction of the already shaky Iraqi economy, cuts to state subsidies encouraged by the International Monetary Fund and the Coalition Provisional Authority, and the disruption of the oil industry. Prices of vegetables, eggs, tea, cooking and heating oil, gasoline, and electricity have skyrocketed. Unemployment is regularly estimated at somewhere between 50-70%. One measure of the impact of all this has been a significant rise in child malnutrition, registered by the United Nations and other organizations. Not surprisingly, access to safe water and regular electricity remain well below pre-invasion levels, which were already disastrous after more than a decade of comprehensive sanctions against, and periodic bombing of, a country staggered by a catastrophic war with Iran in the 1980s and the First Gulf War.

In an ongoing crisis, in which hundred of thousands of Iraqis have already died, the last few months have proved some of the bloodiest on record. In October alone, more than six thousand civilians were killed in Iraq, most in Baghdad, where thousands of additional U.S. troops had been sent in August (in the first official Bush administration "surge") with the claim that they would restore order and stability in the city. In the end, they only fueled more violence. These figures -- and they are generally considered undercounts -- are more than double the 2005 rate. Other things have more or less doubled in the last years, including, to name just two, the number of daily attacks on U.S. troops and the overall number of U.S. soldiers killed and wounded. United Nations special investigator Manfred Nowak also notes that torture "is totally out of hand" in Iraq. "The situation is so bad many people say it is worse than it has been in the times of Saddam Hussein."

Given the disaster that Iraq is today, you could keep listing terrible numbers until your mind was numb. But here's another way of putting the last four years in context. In that same period, there have, in fact, been a large number of deaths in a distant land on the minds of many people in the United States: Darfur. Since 2003, according to UN estimates, some 200,000 have been killed in the Darfur region of Sudan in a brutal ethnic-cleansing campaign and another 2 million have been turned into refugees.

How would you know this? Well, if you lived in New York City, at least, you could hardly take a subway ride without seeing an ad that reads: "400,000 dead. Millions uniting to save Darfur." The New York Times has also regularly featured full-page ads describing the "genocide" in Darfur and calling for intervention there under "a chain of command allowing necessary and timely military action without approval from distant political or civilian personnel."

In those same years, according to the best estimate available, the British medical journal The Lancet's door-to-door study of Iraqi deaths, approximately 655,000 Iraqis had died in war, occupation, and civil strife between March 2003 and June 2006. (The study offers a low-end possible figure on deaths of 392,000 and a high-end figure of 943,000.) But you could travel coast to coast without seeing the equivalents of the billboards, subway placards, full-page newspaper ads, or the like for the Iraqi dead. And you certainly won't see, as in the case of Darfur, celebrities on Good Morning America talking about their commitment to stopping "genocide" in Iraq.

Why is it that we are counting and thinking about the Sudanese dead as part of a high-profile, celebrity-driven campaign to "Save Darfur," yet Iraqi deaths still go effectively uncounted, and rarely seem to provoke moral outrage, let alone public campaigns to end the killing? And why are the numbers of killed in Darfur cited without any question, while the numbers of Iraqi dead, unless pitifully low-ball figures, are instantly challenged -- or dismissed?

In our world, it seems, there are the worthy victims and the unworthy ones. To get at the difference, consider the posture of the United States toward the Sudan and Iraq. According to the Bush administration, Sudan is a "rogue state"; it is on the State Department's list of "state sponsors of terrorism." It stands accused of attacking the United States through its role in the suicide-boat bombing of the USS Cole in 2000. And then, of course -- as Mahmood Mamdani pointed out in the London Review of Books recently -- Darfur fits neatly into a narrative of "Muslim-on-Muslim violence," of a "genocide perpetrated by Arabs," a line of argument that appeals heavily to those who would like to change the subject from what the United States has done -- and is doing -- in Iraq. Talking about U.S. accountability for the deaths of the Iraqis we supposedly liberated is a far less comfortable matter.

It's okay to discuss U.S. "complicity" in human rights abuses, but only as long as you remain focused on sins of omission, not commission. We are failing the people of Darfur by not militarily intervening. If only we had used our military more aggressively. When, however, we do intervene, and wreak havoc in the process, it's another matter.

If anything, the focus on Darfur serves to legitimize the idea of U.S. intervention, of being more of an empire, not less of one, at the very moment when the carnage that such intervention causes is all too visible and is being widely repudiated around the globe. This has also contributed to a situation in which the violence for which the United States is the most responsible, Iraq, is that for which it is held the least accountable at home.

If anyone erred in Iraq, we now hear establishment critics of the invasion and occupation suggest, the real problem was administration incompetence or George Bush's overly optimistic belief that he could bring democracy to Arab or Muslim people, who, we are told, "have no tradition of democracy," who are from a "sick" and "broken society" – and, in brutalizing one another in a civil war, are now showing their true nature.

There is a general agreement across much of the political spectrum that we can blame Iraqis for the problems they face. In a much-lauded speech to the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, Sen. Barack Obama couched his criticism of Bush administration policy in a call for "no more coddling" of the Iraqi government: The United States, he insisted, "is not going to hold together this country indefinitely." Richard Perle, one of the neoconservative architects of the invasion of Iraq, now says he "underestimated the depravity" of the Iraqis. Sen. Hillary Clinton, Democratic frontrunner in the 2008 presidential election, recently asked, "How much are we willing to sacrifice [for the Iraqis]?" As if the Iraqis asked us to invade their country and make their world a living hell and are now letting us down.

This is what happens when the imperial burden gets too heavy. The natives come in for a lashing.

The disaster the United States has wrought in Iraq is worsening by the day and its effects will be long lasting. How long they last, and how far they spread beyond Iraq, will depend on how quickly our government can be forced to end its occupation. It will also depend on how all of us react the next time we hear that we must attack another country to make the world safe from weapons of mass destruction, "spread democracy," or undertake a "humanitarian intervention." In the meantime, it's worth thinking about what all those horrific figures will look like next March, on the fifth anniversary of the invasion, and the March after, on the sixth, and the March after that…

Put it on a billboard -- in your head, if nowhere else.

Anthony Arnove is the author of Iraq: The Logic of Withdrawal (American Empire Project, Metropolitan) and, with Howard Zinn, of Voices of a People's History of the United States (Seven Stories).


sirs

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2007, 03:25:39 AM »
Four Years Later... And Counting
Billboarding the Iraqi Disaster
By Anthony Arnove

As you read this, we're four years from the moment the Bush administration launched its shock-and-awe assault on Iraq, beginning 48 months of remarkable, non-stop destruction of that country … and still counting. It's an important moment for taking stock of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Here is a short rundown of some of what George Bush's war and occupation has wrought: yada, rant, blather, rant


And on the flip side of this Bush is evil rant, it has taken out a definative threat terrorists had at potentially aquiring/purchasing WMD to use on American soil, has taken out a brutal dictator and his oppressive regime with government sponsored rape rooms.  Where speaking poorly against the government could get you and your family shot.....or worse.  Facilitated a new democracy that couldn't even be dreamed of coming about before hand.  Spearheaded the drafting of a Constitution in a fraction of the time one would normally have expected when a new Democracy is born.  Has facilitated millions upon millions of Iraqis to risk being shot at and killed, just to go vote.   And why even despite the continued efforts by terrorists & insurgents to try and derail the democratic process, continue to poll that whatever the current situation is, that they're better off than they were under Saddam, and that taking him out was the right thing to do.  That, in and of itself, demonstrates precisely how much Iraqis want freedom, want democracy, and will risk life and limb to obtain it.  We sure as hell did, why can't we give the same amount of credit and applause to the Iraqis?  Are they not sophisticated enough?  Are they not smart enough?  Are they not worthy of freedom?

Apparently Tee, Mr. Arnove, & like minds don't think so.  Sad 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 10:46:56 AM »
I guess any country with nuclear weapons is a "definite threat" to America because "terrorists" could get nukes from it to use against American soil.  In THAT case, why Iraq, which didn't even HAVE nukes?  Why not Pakistan or Israel or Ukraine?  Never before had America even considered that any of those countries was a "definite threat" to America, despite evidence that none of them have stable, corruption-free governments and that Pakistan, for example, HAS been willing to disseminate some of its knowledge.  This is one of the saddest, flimsiest excuses for the war.  Obviously, if that were a valid concern, many countries would have been invaded before Iraq.

The idea that Saddam, even if he HAD nukes, would just give them away like dime-store trinkets, to any "terrorist" group merely for the asking, and be at their mercy, blackmailed for life, let alone retaliated against in kind, is mind-boggling.

Equally laughable is the idea that a "brutal dictator" is gone, along with his torture and rape rooms.  The links from the article I reposted (which I realize don't operate in this format) go to articles which prove that torture is even WORSE without Saddam at the helm.  Torture is legal in Israel, practised all over the Middle East, often the worst offenders are solid U.S. allies and the thought that Saddam's departure has improved anything is as ludicrous as the thought that America is now safer from rogue nukes.  Bizarre and pathetic.

Gotta run.  Will finish this later.

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 11:37:04 AM »
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it has taken out a definative threat terrorists had at potentially aquiring/purchasing WMD to use on American soil

There were no WMD and no real connections to terrorists. There was certainly no proof that WMD would have ever been transferred to terrorist groups. This is a point-blank lie.

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has taken out a brutal dictator and his oppressive regime with government sponsored rape rooms

And yet torture and rape continue in Iraq. In fact, very near where I live some soldiers were convicted of raping an Iraqi girl and murdering her family.

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Where speaking poorly against the government could get you and your family shot.....or worse

And now going to a religious site can get you and your family shot...or worse.

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Facilitated a new democracy that couldn't even be dreamed of coming about before hand.

A "democracy" that still uses laws which Saddam put into place. A "democracy" that the United States routinely ignores.

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Spearheaded the drafting of a Constitution in a fraction of the time one would normally have expected when a new Democracy is born

Born? This government was not "born." The two top leaders have strong ties to Iran and the United States tells them that they have to "distance" themselves. You call that a "democracy?" The Constitution was not drafted amazingly quickly compared to other nations that form governments that rapidly. You are thinking of pre-modern times.

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Has facilitated millions upon millions of Iraqis to risk being shot at and killed, just to go vote.

Not really. Most of the violence has stemmed from the Sunni segments of the population and they had no interest in making attacks on election goers. What would it have benefitted them? They were going to lose anyway. It was better for them to save their attacks on the government until after the election.

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That, in and of itself, demonstrates precisely how much Iraqis want freedom, want democracy, and will risk life and limb to obtain it.

No. That means they loathed Saddam and there are far more Kurds and Shi'a Muslims than Sunni who benefitted under Saddam. Saddam always represented a minority of the powerful. It would be bizarre to find a poll where the majority wish he'd have remained in power. Don't make statistics into what they are not.

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We sure as hell did, why can't we give the same amount of credit and applause to the Iraqis?  Are they not sophisticated enough?  Are they not smart enough?  Are they not worthy of freedom?

What a stupid argument.

Why didn't Sirs urge the President to invade North Korea? Are the North Koreans not worthy of freedom? Are they not smart enough? Are they too unsophisticated?

Sirs and George W. Bush think so. They think the yellow-skinned people are too dumb and unworthy of freedom.

Sheesh.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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sirs

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2007, 12:05:05 PM »
Why didn't Sirs urge the President to invade North Korea? Are the North Koreans not worthy of freedom? Are they not smart enough? Are they too unsophisticated?   Sirs and George W. Bush think so. They think the yellow-skinned people are too dumb and unworthy of freedom.

Show me the busted UN resolution that NK broke regarding their WMD.  Show me the connections they had with AlQeada.  Show me the support Kim Jong Il had for terrorists like Alqeada, paying homicide bombers thousands of dollars.  So, you advocating we just willy nilly go into just any dicator's country,............ just because??

Once again Js ignore the reasons we went into Iraq, to make it sound like the only reason we went in was to bring democracy to Iraq.  That's being quite a bit intellectually dishonest.  We're we're helping to establish freedom becasue we are there now, because we did "break it", when we took out the threat his WMD getting in the hands of terrorists.

oy
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2007, 12:34:26 PM »
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Show me the busted UN resolution that NK broke regarding their WMD.  Show me the connections they had with AlQeada.  Show me the support Kim Jong Il had for terrorists like Alqeada, paying homicide bombers thousands of dollars.  So, you advocating we just willy nilly go into just any dicator's country,............ just because??

You really did completely miss the point of why I wrote that, didn't you? I could have used a myriad of other countries besides North Korea.

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Once again Js ignore the reasons we went into Iraq, to make it sound like the only reason we went in was to bring democracy to Iraq.

I know the reasons well. There were about 4,732 of them. It was a matter of tossing fecal deposits at the wall and seeing which ones stuck for the American people and then the United Nations.

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We're we're helping to establish freedom becasue we are there now, because we did "break it", when we took out the threat his WMD getting in the hands of terrorists.

Yes, the nonexistent threat of Saddam handing over his nonexistent WMD through his debatable connections to terrorists for which nonexistent evidence provided nonexistent proof that he would be making nonexistent transfers of his nonexistent WMD to the debatable terrorists.

It was really touch & go for a while there.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2007, 12:54:22 PM »
Quote
Show me the busted UN resolution that NK broke regarding their WMD.  Show me the connections they had with AlQeada.  Show me the support Kim Jong Il had for terrorists like Alqeada, paying homicide bombers thousands of dollars.  So, you advocating we just willy nilly go into just any dicator's country,............ just because??

You really did completely miss the point of why I wrote that, didn't you? I could have used a myriad of other countries besides North Korea.

Analogus to why we went into Iraq would have been your best course of action


Quote
Once again Js ignore the reasons we went into Iraq, to make it sound like the only reason we went in was to bring democracy to Iraq.

I know the reasons well. There were about 4,732 of them.

Actually, that'd be false.  There was, and always has been 1 primary reason, and 2-3 secondary reasons, with the 2ndary ones pretty much becoming a necessisity after having dealt with the primary one.  You prop yourself to be this excellent historian.  I'm surprised how easy you allow that to slack when trying to bash this administration & war in Iraq    :-\


Yes, the nonexistent threat of Saddam handing over his nonexistent WMD through his debatable connections to terrorists for which nonexistent evidence provided nonexistent proof that he would be making nonexistent transfers of his nonexistent WMD to the debatable terrorists.  It was really touch & go for a while there.

Yea, the ones that nearly unanimously was concluded as the case by the previous administration, the UN, the Intellegence community, the......well, your the supposed history buff, you know as well as I how many made the same conclusions of Saddam's non-existant WMD.  You want to feign ignorance on that one as well, by my guest.  You haven't read David Kay's report yet, either have ypu?  Oh wait, you probably did.  Just slipped your mind is all, right?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2007, 01:11:20 PM »
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Analogus to why we went into Iraq would have been your best course of action

No, it needed no parallel when compared to the lack of logic to which you applied your ridiculous assertions onto Tee as to whether "Iraqis are smart enough?" Such a question required no preconceived notions of why the nation was invaded, it is purely an attempt to play a race card, for which the same could be said about any people across the world living in a situation without "freedom" as you define it.

Clearly logic is not your strong suit, but you ought to be careful when making such a pathetic appeal to emotion.

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Actually, that'd be false.  There was, and always has been 1 primary reason, and 2-3 secondary reasons, with the 2ndary ones pretty much becoming a necessisity after having dealt with the primary one.

No, it wouldn't be. There was a lot of language used by the President and his administration. Not all of it dealt with a "primary reason" and "2 to 3 secondary reasons" nor was it always presented to the public as such.

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You prop yourself to be this excellent historian.  I'm surprised how easy you allow that to slack when trying to bash this administration & war in Iraq

I don't "prop" myself up to be anything. Moreover I have no interest in "bashing" this administration. I do believe it was an unjust war and your little review of it is naive to the point of being suitable for Aktuelle Kamera.

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Yea, the ones that nearly unanimously was concluded as the case by the previous administration, the UN, the Intellegence community, the......well, your the supposed history buff, you know as well as I how many made the same conclusions of Saddam's non-existant WMD.

And of course UN reports to that date showed no such WMD as well as intelligence reports of our own and intelligence provided by some of our own experts. There was plenty of intelligence contrary to this, but it was ignored. In fact, there have been former insiders who have written books and said that it was purposefully marginalised and ignored.

Much of the international community was skeptical of the evidence presented, but you conveniently ignore that as well. Moreover, you've yet to show a real tie to terrorists where WMD were honestly being suggested for transfer. This was a complete fabrication.

But go on and paint your rosy picture of Pollyanna tiptoing through the tulips of Iraqi democracy as the United States kisses Iraqi babies and Iranian and Syrian orc-like creatures attack innocent little Iraqis with no provocation.

It is that kind of thinking that has been "winning" this war all along.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 01:18:43 PM »
Quote
Analogus to why we went into Iraq would have been your best course of action

No, it needed no parallel .............

Yes, it did.  Since without it, the rest is moot and meaningless.  Call it background noise.  Filler



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2007, 01:49:18 PM »
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Yes, it did.  Since without it, the rest is moot and meaningless.  Call it background noise.  Filler

*sigh*

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We sure as hell did, why can't we give the same amount of credit and applause to the Iraqis?  Are they not sophisticated enough?  Are they not smart enough?  Are they not worthy of freedom?

This is an argument that those who disagree with the initial invasion hold racist and elitist views of the Iraqis. It was attempted by George W Bush and here again by Sirs.

The first question asks: "Are they not sophisticated enough?"
The second question: "Are they not smart enough?"
The last asks: "Are they not worthy of freedom?"

The implication here is that Tee (specifically) and others of his ilk must be inherently racist to have opposed and continue to oppose the war in Iraq. There is an ignorance of logic in this conclusion.

First of all, we have no idea whether Tee has some racist leanings against the Iraqis or not, but with the absence of evidence it is safer to presume that he does not. Moreover, all those who oppose the war in Iraq certainly are not racists and have no secret thoughts that Iraqis are "not worthy" or "not smart."

Sirs, quite predictably provides this as the only reasonable conclusion for opposing the war. This is where a moderately clever red herring becomes a rather pathetic attempt at Machiavellian politics. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Sir's racist strawman has many holes in it and is easily tossed aside (or gone around as the case may be). It fails on a Kantian universal level, which I tried to illustrate, but for which Sir's only reply was to claim that this is a "one-time scenario that only works in the exact conditions of Iraq." Well, we know that is bullshit.

Either people of different races and backgrounds deserve freedom or not. Either they are intelligent enough or not. Either they are sophisticated enough or not. To apply it to only Iraq is to fall into your very own racist quagmire Sirs. That means that North Koreans, Zimbabweans, Burmese, etc do not fit those categories. Your ethics fail as your test is not universal. You then become the very monster you try and claim that Tee and others are.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2007, 02:04:11 PM »
Quote
Either people of different races and backgrounds deserve freedom or not. Either they are intelligent enough or not. Either they are sophisticated enough or not. To apply it to only Iraq is to fall into your very own racist quagmire Sirs. That means that North Koreans, Zimbabweans, Burmese, etc do not fit those categories. Your ethics fail as your test is not universal. You then become the very monster you try and claim that Tee and others are.

Logic fallacy.

What does North Korea have to do with Iraq if the FOCUS is on IRAQ now?

What rule says democracy has to be sought in all offending countries simultaneously?

I don't know of one. Do you?

_JS

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2007, 02:20:07 PM »
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Logic fallacy.

What does North Korea have to do with Iraq if the FOCUS is on IRAQ now?

What rule says democracy has to be sought in all offending countries simultaneously?

I don't know of one. Do you?

No, but that's not the point at all.

The point is that when you apply a fallacy for a conclusion that employs a broad generalisation, then ethically it has to apply universally. Racism should be universally wrong, lest your ethical system is failing.

You seem to think that my post above is about the war. It is not. It is about Sir's conclusion that those who oppose the war must be inherently racist and elitist with their beliefs towards the Iraqis. If we apply that universally, it doesn't hold true. We could do so not just with war, but with any policy.

That is why it is a logical fallacy. 
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2007, 02:33:35 PM »
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We sure as hell did, why can't we give the same amount of credit and applause to the Iraqis?  Are they not sophisticated enough?  Are they not smart enough?  Are they not worthy of freedom?

This is an argument that those who disagree with the initial invasion hold racist and elitist views of the Iraqis. It was attempted by George W Bush and here again by Sirs. The implication here is that Tee (specifically) and others of his ilk must be inherently racist to have opposed and continue to oppose the war in Iraq. There is an ignorance of logic in this conclusion.

No NO NO.  That is NOT the implication.  That's just another tactic by those of the anti-war crowd to avoid the issues being brought forth by the pro-democracy crowd, claim that the latter is referring to the former as racists.  If there were any "implication", it would be in how the vast majority of the anti-war crowd see everything that Bush touches as a disaster, every word out of his mouth a lie, all of which is pure hyperbolic AMBE.  The "implication" is in how these folks are so vitriolic in their hatred of Bush (see the post that initiated this thread), that they refuse to acknoweldge the why's, when's, and how's we came to be where we are in Iraq.  And they stringently ignore the good that has come out of this.  Now, while I can actually concede many mistakes having been made AFTER Saddam and his threat was taken out, I have yet to see any substantive concession from the other side of the aisle, conceding yes, a brutal dicator was taken out and that was a good thing, and yes, a new democracy is forming where once there wasn't one, and that's a good thing.  

But no, Bush can do absolutely no right, what-so-ever.  Every good point is spun into how bad it really is.  The fact that millions of people voted, gets spun into how they had to dodge bullets, when before they didn't have to (of course you had to vote for Saddam).  The fact that people now have the freedom to criticize their new Iraqi Government gets spun with garbage of "well they still can't because of the violence".  It's one thing when the fear is coming from a different point of view.  It's a hell of a world of difference when its your government saying you can't have such freedom

So, yes, everyone deserves freedom.  However that's NOT why we went into Iraq, so bringing in NK is pointless.  Now, can you please point out those countries with the oppressive dictator, who have defied UN resolutions, have had both direct & indirect ties to terrorists, and have WMD that could potentially find their way into those terrorists' hands?  That way we can actually be dicsussing your criticism logically vs the filler it currently occupies
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2007, 05:10:27 PM »
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No, but that's not the point at all.

Sure it is. Did Sirs say the North Koreans are not worthy of democracy? DId he say only Iraqi's were?


Plane

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Re: Happy Anniversary
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2007, 05:22:18 PM »
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That, in and of itself, demonstrates precisely how much Iraqis want freedom, want democracy, and will risk life and limb to obtain it.

No. That means they loathed Saddam and there are far more Kurds and Shi'a Muslims than Sunni who benefitted under Saddam. Saddam always represented a minority of the powerful. It would be bizarre to find a poll where the majority wish he'd have remained in power. Don't make statistics into what they are not.

Isn't this an important point?

That Saddam was running an aparthied regime as bad as South Africa was at its worst?

The majority ruleing ,may not be a popular thing withthe minority that is in charge , but what elese should we want?