Author Topic: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate  (Read 5604 times)

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hnumpah

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'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« on: October 05, 2006, 01:38:02 PM »
Opponents See Bush's Words on War as Insensitive or as Code for Religious Right

By Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, October 5, 2006; A19



SCOTTSDALE, Ariz., Oct. 4 -- When the president speaks, every word can be subject to scrutiny. Even the punctuation marks.

As he heads out on the campaign trail, haunted by an unpopular war, President Bush has begun reassuring audiences that this traumatic period in Iraq will be seen as "just a comma" in the history books. By that, aides say, he means to reinforce his message of resolve in the long struggle for Iraqi democracy.

But opponents of the war have seized on the formulation, seeing it as evidence that Bush is indifferent to suffering. To them, it sounds as if the president is dismissing more than 2,700 U.S. troop deaths as "just a comma." And a lively Internet debate has broken out about the origins of the phrase, with some speculating that Bush means it as a coded message to religious supporters, evoking the aphorism "Never put a period where God has put a comma."

Presidential utterances have long drawn enormous notice. But instant transcripts and the Internet have focused an even more powerful microscope on the nation's leader. The approaching midterm elections have intensified the already close scrutiny of the president's words as he sharpens his rhetoric.

As Bush wound up a three-day campaign swing out west on Wednesday, for example, he attacked Democrats for voting last week against legislation authorizing warrantless telephone and e-mail surveillance.

"One hundred and seventy-seven of the opposition party said, 'You know, we don't think we ought to be listening to the conversations of terrorists,' " Bush said at a fundraiser for Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.) before heading to Colorado for gubernatorial candidate Bob Beauprez.

Asked about the president's statement, White House aides could not name any Democrat who has said that the government should not listen in on terrorists. Democrats who voted against the legislation had complained that it would hand too much power to the president and had said that they wanted more checks in the bill to protect civil liberties.

Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.) called Bush's comment outrageous: "Every member of Congress, from both parties, supports listening in on terrorist communications, but the president still hasn't explained why we have to break the law to do it. It is time for the president to stop exploiting the terrorist threat to justify his power grab."

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino defended Bush's remark as a reasonable extrapolation of the Democratic position. "Of course, they aren't silly enough to say they don't want to listen in on terrorists, but actions speak louder than words, and people should know what the Democrats' voting record is," she said.

The comma remark, though, offers an especially intriguing case study in how a few words can trigger many interpretations. Bush used it in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer aired on Sept. 24 in talking about Iraq. He noted the bloodshed shown on television but hailed the resiliency of the Iraqi people and cited the election last December in which 12 million came to the polls despite the violence.

"Admittedly, it seems like a decade ago," Bush went on. "I like to tell people when the final history is written on Iraq, it will look like just a comma because there is -- my point is, there's a strong will for democracy." The president used a similar line at a campaign event last week in Alabama and again on Tuesday in Stockton, Calif.

Critics of Bush began e-mailing and blogging about the remark within minutes of the CNN interview. The Carpetbagger Report blog called it stunning "even by Bush's already-low standards" and added: "Everything we're seeing is 'just a comma.' I'm sure that will bring comfort to the families of those who have sacrificed so much for Bush's mistakes."

Then Ian Welsh, on his Agonist blog, postulated a theory about the hidden meaning of the comment, citing the "never put a period" saying and calling it a "dog whistle" comment that only some would understand: "He is constantly littering his speeches with code words and phrases meant for the religious right. Other people don't hear them, but they do, and most of the time it allows Bush both to say what those who aren't evangelical or born again want to hear, while still reassuring the religious right [what it] wants to hear."

But it turns out that the phrase "never put a period" originated not with a Christian conservative figure or biblical passage but with Gracie Allen, the comedienne wife of George Burns. And the phrase is a favorite not of the religious right but of the religious left. The United Church of Christ, which is devoted to fighting for what it calls social justice and opposes the war, adopted the phrase in January 2002.

"I needed something short and succinct," said Ron Buford, the marketing director who came up with it. "When I saw the Gracie Allen quote, I was up all night thinking about it -- God is still speaking, there's more for us to know."

When he heard about Bush's comment, Buford was stunned. "It's ironic that, as savvy as they are about using these quotes to strengthen their base, that he would use a quote that we've been using lately," Buford said.

Aides said it is ridiculous to believe Bush is sending subliminal messages. "People have too much time on their hands," said Bush counselor Dan Bartlett. "I can assure you, you don't need a secret decoder ring to decipher what he's saying."

All Bush means, he said, is the struggle to build Iraqi democracy will take years. "He's making a historical analysis -- that these brief periods seem long and protracted now, but when you look back at them in history, they won't seem that way. He's definitely not discounting the loss of life or the sacrifice people are making."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100401707_pf.html
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Plane

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2006, 02:57:01 PM »
"Every member of Congress, from both parties, supports listening in on terrorist communications,"


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How then?

What would they vote to allow?

Plane

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2006, 02:59:20 PM »
I already knew that Gracie Allen was as genius , but I hadn't heard this quote before.



I like it , but I don't see how it is apt to the situation.



Could the statement that President Bush actually made be presented in its actual context?
Or is there some rule against that?

Amianthus

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2006, 03:08:43 PM »
I already knew that Gracie Allen was as genius , but I hadn't heard this quote before.

What I love is how a bunch of leftwing bloggers have proclaimed this statement as "rightwing, Christian codewords."
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hnumpah

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 04:44:30 PM »
Quote
What would they vote to allow?

According to the article:

...Democrats who voted against the legislation had complained that it would hand too much power to the president and had said that they wanted more checks in the bill to protect civil liberties.

Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.) called Bush's comment outrageous: "Every member of Congress, from both parties, supports listening in on terrorist communications, but the president still hasn't explained why we have to break the law to do it. It is time for the president to stop exploiting the terrorist threat to justify his power grab."


My guess is they want what we had, or thought we  had, from the beginning - the use of wiretaps is allowed after judicial review of the justification for them, or after the panel that was set up to do so approves them. Not just whenever and wherever the administration decides to use them on their own.
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hnumpah

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 04:50:52 PM »
Quote
Could the statement that President Bush actually made be presented in its actual context?

You could probably go to the White House web site and read the speeches he gave using that quote, since they mentioned he used it several times in different speeches lately.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/
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Plane

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2006, 03:09:00 AM »
Quote
Could the statement that President Bush actually made be presented in its actual context?

You could probably go to the White House web site and read the speeches he gave using that quote, since they mentioned he used it several times in different speeches lately.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/

Good idea,
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As for the comma. This has been brewed around; Peter had a word or two to say about it today. The comma refers to the period of time between last year's election and today. We're talking about -- well, the President is making the point is, when you look at a history book, a 10-month period is a comma. Now, some people have tried to say, how dare the President refer to this as a comma; he's being glib about the deaths of Americans. That's outrageous, and the people who say that know it. What they're trying to is, willingly or not, wrench a statement out of context and try to use that as an opportunity to accuse a President who is deeply aware of the human cost of war of being calloused about those costs. It's just not true.

And I've talked to him about this a number of times. It was simply -- what he means is that in the grand sweep of history, 10 months is not an epic. Now, there is -- if there is a chasm in here it has to do with what the President said and the way it's been twisted by people who know what the context was.

Q The war is three-and-a-half years old.

MR. SNOW: I know, but notice that "comma" reference was simply referring to the time since -- what he really is referring to is the short lifetime so far of the government. Everybody trying to say, ah-ha, and trying to draw conclusions, is it working, isn't it working; do you have confidence in the Prime Minister, do you not? It's 10 months old. It's a government that is still in its infancy and trying to deal with a host of complex and very important issues. So when you take it in the broad sweep of history, and as we look back -- you and I probably -- well, you may, centuries from now, but I don't think I'm going to last as long as you will, Helen -- but the facts is --

Q Tough. (Laughter.)

MR. SNOW: Yes, probably. But if you look in the broad sweep of history, that will be seen as a comma. That small beginning of a new government -- that's what he's referring to. He's not talking about the war as a comma.

Q But isn't that 10-month period significant only because, in fact, the violence has been so terrible? I mean, the reason we're talking about that time period is the trauma that's going on in Iraq.

MR. SNOW: No, it's significant, Peter, because it is the dawning of a new government. And if you take a look, the violence is a factor. We've been saying for some time that we expected it to spike up, but also you have a number of things that are going on that are very important. You probably saw yesterday they demobilized a police unit in Iraq because of suspicion that they've been working with militias in committing acts of terror. That was one of the things that we have talked about, the importance of getting control of the police, having assertiveness on the part of a national government to make sure that you had all the institutions working toward the benefit of the people.

So there are a number of things that have been going on that you would expect at the beginning of a government. It's being tested, and furthermore, as the 90-10 document -- that is the Pentagon's quarterly paper -- noted back in May -- this was the one that Bob Woodward cites -- that the bulk of the violence right now, you have some sectarian violence and you also have a fair amount, although it's a small wedge of people, of al Qaeda and other terrorists who are trying to inflict maximum damage. That's to be expected.

But on the other hand, what you also see are concerted efforts to create a sense of national reconciliation so that especially those who are involved -- the so-called rejectionists, people who have so far rejected an invitation into government, will, in fact, decide that it's in their interest to be part of a political approach to putting together a unified and peaceful Iraq.

Q The President's statement was open to misinterpretation, let's say. Why did he use it a couple more times after he first did and people reacted --

MR. SNOW: Because he didn't think he had --

Q Why wouldn't he want to avoid any misunderstanding on something so obviously --

MR. SNOW: Maybe he didn't think that people were going to be -- were going to spend so much time trying to twist it out of context. But I'm pleased to have been able to place it in context.


hnumpah

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2006, 08:43:23 PM »
That wasn't from any of Bush's speeches showing how he used the reference in context, that was Tony Snowjob at a press briefing trying to explain it away.
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Plane

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2006, 11:53:36 PM »
That wasn't from any of Bush's speeches showing how he used the reference in context, that was Tony Snowjob at a press briefing trying to explain it away.



I never see President Bush quoted in Context.

I think that is strictly against the rules .

Whatever he really means is less important than what improvements can be made to what he says.

hnumpah

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2006, 12:20:52 AM »
Quote
I never see President Bush quoted in Context.

Oh, come on, Plane, all you have to do is look.

This is from the Remarks by the President at Richard Pombo for Congress Breakfast, Stockton Memorial Civic Auditorium, Stockton, California speech listed on the White House web site:

"You know, it must seem like an eternity to you, when you think about those elections last December. It certainly does to me, in some ways. Ultimately, when this chapter of history will be written, however, it's going to be a comma -- the Iraqis voted, comma, and the United States of America understood that Iraq was a central front in the war on terror and helped this young democracy flourish so that a generation of Americans wouldn't have to worry about the extremists emanating from that country to hurt the American people."

Or you could check out the CNN transcript of the interview with Wolf Blitzer on 24 September:
Quote
(from the article)
Bush used it in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer aired on Sept. 24 in talking about Iraq.
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Plane

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2006, 12:30:29 AM »
Opponents See Bush's Words on War as Insensitive or as Code for Religious Right

  So from this....
Quote
"You know, it must seem like an eternity to you, when you think about those elections last December. It certainly does to me, in some ways. Ultimately, when this chapter of history will be written, however, it's going to be a comma -- the Iraqis voted, comma, and the United States of America understood that Iraq was a central front in the war on terror and helped this young democracy flourish so that a generation of Americans wouldn't have to worry about the extremists emanating from that country to hurt the American people."



We can get this....

Quote
As he heads out on the campaign trail, haunted by an unpopular war, President Bush has begun reassuring audiences that this traumatic period in Iraq will be seen as "just a comma" in the history books. By that, aides say, he means to reinforce his message of resolve in the long struggle for Iraqi democracy.

But opponents of the war have seized on the formulation, seeing it as evidence that Bush is indifferent to suffering. To them, it sounds as if the president is dismissing more than 2,700 U.S. troop deaths as "just a comma." And a lively Internet debate has broken out about the origins of the phrase, with some speculating that Bush means it as a coded message to religious supporters, evoking the aphorism "Never put a period where God has put a comma."

  And this is not unfair evan though it totally ignores what the President was talking about?

In Context it seems clear that he was refering to the extreme youth of the  Iriqui Government in response to a question about its progress.

But understanding the clear meaning is not as much fun as spinning a phrase into an encliclopedia of code words.

hnumpah

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2006, 12:44:40 AM »
Quote
In Context it seems clear that he was refering to the extreme youth of the  Iriqui Government in response to a question about its progress.

In context, there was no 'question about its progress' - this was from a speech Bush gave.

You could read it  like this:

"You know, it must seem like an eternity to you, when you think about those elections last December. It certainly does to me, in some ways. Ultimately, when this chapter of history will be written, however, it's going to be a comma -- the Iraqis voted, thousands of American troops died, and the United States of America understood that Iraq was a central front in the war on terror and helped this young democracy flourish so that a generation of Americans wouldn't have to worry about the extremists emanating from that country to hurt the American people."

Maybe that would help you understand why some folks raised questions about the statement. Personally, I already know Bush has trouble expressing himself - there is an entire website dedicated to his misspoken Bushisms. I would think, though, that the speechwriters who come up with this stuff for him so he doesn't come off sounding like a hick could do a better job of it.
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Lanya

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2006, 02:38:37 AM »
Quoting Bear:
Maybe that would help you understand why some folks raised questions about the statement. Personally, I already know Bush has trouble expressing himself - there is an entire website dedicated to his misspoken Bushisms. I would think, though, that the speechwriters who come up with this stuff for him so he doesn't come off sounding like a hick could do a better job of it.  Endquote

I don't care if he sounds like a hick. Half the people in this town sound like hicks. 
I care if he makes the war less than it is. Diminishes it.  "Just a comma." 
The brain injuries that are the signature wound of this war----"Just a comma, soldiier."
Well, he has people to write speeches for him.  I don't care if he would just let them give the speeches and they just wheeled him out at ceremonial occasions to wave graciously at us from a balcony or something.  I'm very tired of him.
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Plane

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2006, 04:01:37 AM »
Quoting Bear:
Maybe that would help you understand why some folks raised questions about the statement. Personally, I already know Bush has trouble expressing himself - there is an entire website dedicated to his misspoken Bushisms. I would think, though, that the speechwriters who come up with this stuff for him so he doesn't come off sounding like a hick could do a better job of it.  Endquote

I don't care if he sounds like a hick. Half the people in this town sound like hicks. 
I care if he makes the war less than it is. Diminishes it.  "Just a comma." 
The brain injuries that are the signature wound of this war----"Just a comma, soldiier."
Well, he has people to write speeches for him.  I don't care if he would just let them give the speeches and they just wheeled him out at ceremonial occasions to wave graciously at us from a balcony or something.  I'm very tired of him.


Oh come on Lanya , you have never had him without a filter yet.  What he really says and really means has been explained to you by people who don't like much more than you don't like him.

H , I suppose that emphasis added improves the diffrence in understanding , but you are pretty much saying that you know that he was not intending to minimise the sacrifice of thousands of dead and wounded Americans , he just sounds like a "hick".

Well I don't think he is all that hard to understand , I am a cracker myself . I don't think that Tony Snows expantion of the phrase is less accurate than the speculation that he is encodeing messages for the far right with "Code Words".

hnumpah

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Re: 'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2006, 08:33:13 AM »
Quote
...but you are pretty much saying that you know that he was not intending to minimise the sacrifice of thousands of dead and wounded Americans...


Of course that's what I said. However, I posted the story not because I agree with the idea that he intentionally minimised the deaths of American troops, nor the idea that the quote has religious overtones, but because it was an interesting story, to me anyway. That is allowed, yes?
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