Who would our Founders endorse for president today?

[The_Professor]

Nuthun' particularly. However, I dispute that the nation's history is not closely intertwined with Christinaity. Read "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manual.  They are providing historical examples of America being a Christian Nation guided by God to fulfill its destiny in God's plan as a Puritan City on A Hill or a New Israel. Millions of Americans both past and present have believed in such a destiny and these authors present this view well. Are they biased? Yes. But not anymore than Marxist, revisionist, feminist, or multi-cultural historians.

[Universe Prince]

However, I dispute that the nation's history is not closely intertwined with Christinaity.

I did not say that it wasn't. However, America is not a theocracy. We are not ruled by priests. While many if not most voters here in America would likely not vote for an atheist or a Pagan, there is no religious qualification in the law for public office. America is a secular nation, and we are the better for it.

Lead "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manual.  They are providing historical examples of America being a Christian Nation guided by God to fulfill its destiny in God's plan as a Puritan City on A Hill or a New Israel. Millions of Americans both past and present have believed in such a destiny and these authors present this view well. Are they biased? Yes. But not anymore than Marxist, revisionist, feminist, or multi-cultural historians.

I am not curious enough to add that book to my already considerable reading list, but I am curious as to upon what this notion of America as having some sort of God-planned destiny is based. I don't recall seeing America mentioned in the Bible. Was there some divine revelation that I missed? I am not saying America is not a nation blessed by God, but I am skeptical that America has a destiny as a "Puritan City on A Hill" or a "New Israel". Prophesy in the Bible speaks of God's plan for a future world of goodness and light, but none of it points to that world being America or led by Americans or anything of that sort. So, I frankly just don't buy this whole destiny notion. America is what we make it. The responsibility for America's future rests with us, not with God. And that is as it should be.

[Lanya]

UP,  if you're interested,  Google "Dominionism" and "Reconstructionism."    That is where I remember reading about these ideas. 

[Plane]

I think it is strong evidence that we are ad have always been a Christian Nation .

I think evidence points to America having always been a secular nation. With a strong Christian influence perhaps, but secular nonetheless. Personally, I hope it remains a secular nation. I find the multitude of calls for America to be a Christian nation "again" or to be "taken back" by the conservative Christians to be somewhat worrisome. I also find it a little sad to see the article imply that there is something inherently wrong with a U.S. Congressman being sworn in with a Koran. Of course, I suppose I should expect that from an author who also thinks closed American borders is the duty of Christian rulers. I find it hard to believe that Christ would approve of such an Us vs. Them attitude.

Rather than go on, which would likely result in the use of mean words and phrases indicating my extreme disagreement with the author of the article and maybe a few other people, I'll just end here.

You have it wrong .


The Government is secular , but the Government is not the nation.

The Nation is the set of people that must consent to be governed , I like that our system allows the people to be influential in the selection of the government.

The Nation has most definately been Christian since before the foundation of the Government , I consider the distinction between Nation and Government to be important and seminal to the theroy exressed in the Declaration of Independance that the Government  governs by he consent of the governed.


That the Governed are mostly Christian is indisputable , that something is wrong with the people demanding a government freindly to themselves is a misunderstanding of democracy.

Tolerance of minority is gnerally a good idea but not if it comes to be an intolerace of Majority.

[Universe Prince]

You have it wrong .

[...]

The Nation has most definately been Christian since before the foundation of the Government , I consider the distinction between Nation and Government to be important and seminal to the theroy exressed in the Declaration of Independance that the Government  governs by he consent of the governed.

There is a difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.

That the Governed are mostly Christian is indisputable , that something is wrong with the people demanding a government freindly to themselves is a misunderstanding of democracy.

Tolerance of minority is gnerally a good idea but not if it comes to be an intolerace of Majority.

I have little if any objection to Christians seeking a government friendly to themselves. Being a Christian, I hope that the government is friendly toward us. I do, however, have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences. Because while I want the government to be friendly toward us, I also want the government friendly toward the Pagans and the atheists and the Zensunni (sorry, been reading Dune novels). As a Christian, I see Christ's admonitions "whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them," and "love your neighbor as yourself" to be extremely important in regard to how Christians are supposed to interact with others at a social level. And in the gospels I don't see Jesus getting pissed off when someone was too lenient toward adulteresses or to people of different faiths. I do see Jesus reaching out to those people, the adulteress and the woman at the well and the tax collectors, and trying to help them. I don't see Jesus trying to make the government officials Jewish so they could all impose Jewish ideas on everyone else. I do see Jesus condemning those who tried to make the religion into burdensome laws imposed on others for their supposed own good.

I frequently do not see that attitude amongst those who talk the loudest about America being a Christian nation. Instead I usually see people who want to use Christianity as an excuse to impose social programs on the nation or to deny people who are not like us the liberty to marry in an unapproved fashion. Each group, of course, certain of the righteousness of its desire to protect society.

I am not trying to mute anyone or keep anyone from expressing his opinion. But I find more and more lately that the majority of contributions to the national discussion of America being a Christian nation seem less about Christian ideas and more about promoting a political agenda of control. Which doesn't seem all that Christian to me, but what the frak do I know?

[Plane]

[

There is a difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.

You will have to explain that a bit more , as stated, I do not see it as true.

I have little if any objection to Christians seeking a government friendly to themselves. Being a Christian, I hope that the government is friendly toward us. I do, however, have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences.

That is enough.

NO one in America is trying to enforce conversion.

[Universe Prince]

There is a difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.

You will have to explain that a bit more , as stated, I do not see it as true.

Do we allow Muslims and Wiccans to worship in this country? Of course we do. Do we have in our law basic Christian tenets such as "You shall have no other gods before Me"? No, of course not. America may be (mostly) a nation of Christians, but it is not a Christian nation.

I have little if any objection to Christians seeking a government friendly to themselves. Being a Christian, I hope that the government is friendly toward us. I do, however, have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences.

That is enough.

NO one in America is trying to enforce conversion.

I did not say a word about conversion. I said I have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences.

[The_Professor]

"...I did not say a word about conversion. I said I have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences."

A little late. This has been done since our Founding. CHRISTIAN views and preferences are written into the very fabric of our culture, our legal system and on and on....might as well try holding back the tide.

[Universe Prince]

"...I did not say a word about conversion. I said I have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences."

A little late. This has been done since our Founding. CHRISTIAN views and preferecnes are written into the very fabric of our culture, our legal system and on and on....might as well try hlolding back the tide.

That something has been done for a very long time does not make it right or unstoppable.

[BT]

That something has been done for a very long time does not make it right or unstoppable

Of course it isn't unstoppable. The same democratic process that ot these laws enacted is available to get them repealed.

All it takes is the votes.

[Plane]

There is a difference between a nation of Christians and a Christian nation.

You will have to explain that a bit more , as stated, I do not see it as true.

Do we allow Muslims and Wiccans to worship in this country? Of course we do. Do we have in our law basic Christian tenets such as "You shall have no other gods before Me"? No, of course not. America may be (mostly) a nation of Christians, but it is not a Christian nation.

I have little if any objection to Christians seeking a government friendly to themselves. Being a Christian, I hope that the government is friendly toward us. I do, however, have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences.

That is enough.

NO one in America is trying to enforce conversion.

I did not say a word about conversion. I said I have an objection to Christians seeking to use government to enforce religious preferences.

[color]America may be (mostly) a nation of Christians, but it is not a Christian nation.[/color]

Huh?

You have confused government with nationhood.

If we are a nation mostly of Christians then we are a Christian nation.

We find it meet to be tolerant and to choose that our government not have a religious voice , I agree that this is the way to govern.


But how can you say that we are not a Christian nation in the same sentance that admits we are mosty Christians?

[Universe Prince]

You have confused government with nationhood.

If weare a nation mostly of Christians then we are a Christian nation.

We find it meet to be tolerant and to choose that our government not have a religious voice , I agreethat this is the way to govern.


But how can you say that we are not a Christian nation in the same sentance that admits we are mosty Christians?

This is not an esoteric concept. We, as a nation, do not enforce strict adherence to Christian theology. And, no irony intended, thank God for that. We are not a Christian nation. A majority of people identify with the Christian religion, but we are a secular nation filled with many religions and even those who claim no religion at all.

And you are trying way too hard hard to separate the nation from the government.

[Plane]

This is not an esoteric concept. We, as a nation, do not enforce strict adherence to Christian theology. And, no irony intended, thank God for that. We are not a Christian nation. A majority of people identify with the Christian religion, but we are a secular nation filled with many religions and even those who claim no religion at all.

And you are trying way too hard hard to separate the nation from the government.
[/quote]


Way too hard?

These are two diffrent things else ,the Declaration of Independence makes no sense.

I think it good that a nation of Christians has discovered the value of tolerance , I think it good that have not forbidden even our leadership to determine their own church.

I think you are struggleing hard to confuse the definition fo "Nation " and "Government " because their sepration destroys your arguement , if they are really the same thing ,then I have been misunderstanding the whole concept for a long time.

[The_Professor]

You have confused government with nationhood.

If weare a nation mostly of Christians then we are a Christian nation.

We find it meet to be tolerant and to choose that our government not have a religious voice , I agreethat this is the way to govern.


But how can you say that we are not a Christian nation in the same sentance that admits we are mosty Christians?

This is not an esoteric concept. We, as a nation, do not enforce strict adherence to Christian theology. And, no irony intended, thank God for that. We are not a Christian nation. A majority of people identify with the Christian religion, but we are a secular nation filled with many religions and even those who claim no religion at all.

And you are trying way too hard hard to separate the nation from the government.

Gee, this was good, UP. All this talk about DIVERSITY and PLURALISM without mentioning those terms. Bteer get on the PC bandwagon. Or, is this simply yet another PC attack?

[Universe Prince]

These are two diffrent things else ,the Declaration of Independence makes no sense.

[...]

I think you are struggleing hard to confuse the definition fo "Nation " and "Government " because their sepration destroys your arguement , if they are really the same thing ,then I have been misunderstanding the whole concept for a long time.

I did not say they were the same thing, and I'm not trying to make them synonyms. I do think they are related to each other, particularly in this odd political experiment called the United States of America. But please, I would like for you to explain how one keeps a nation entirely separate from its government. Particularly a nation with a democratic republican government such as we have.