Author Topic: The founders' ACTUAL intent  (Read 2660 times)

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Stray Pooch

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The founders' ACTUAL intent
« on: April 08, 2007, 09:40:18 AM »
This is a reply to Lanya's post about the founder's intent.  It became so long (yep, folks, it's another patented Pooch pontification!) that I decided it might be better as its own thread.

Here are three historical realities:

1)  The intent of the first amendment and of Article VI was to increase religious freedom - not limit it. 

2)  The "wall of separation" as it was described by Jefferson was intended to be between church and state - not between religion and the public.

3)  The first amendment and Article VI were intended to apply only to the federal governments -not to the states.

A simple understanding of history up to the late eighteenth century clarifies the intent of the first amendment (and Article VI which states that no religious test shall be applied to public office holders).  The founding of the United States Constitution was not - in spite of popular belief - the creation of a brand new society.  It was in fact, largely a continuance of British society with revolutionary refinements.  Like eighteenth century Great Britain, the United States federal government is based on a bicameral legislation and a strong, but limited, executive power.  Like Great Britain, the legal system is based on common law rather than civil law.  Refinements concerned such things as legislative election of the executive rather than hereditary accession.  (Popular election is, as most on this site know, not part of the Constitution.)  Checks and balances were built into the Constitution to keep one branch from dominating either of the other or to keep the people of one state from controlling the people of another. Ultimately, the US Constitution was designed to balance the power of the states against the power of the federal government, in order to ultimately protect the power of the people.  This is what is known as the great compromise. 

Since Henry VIII got the hots for Anne Boleyn the question of establishment had been the cause of massive bloodshed throughout Europe, and in Great Britain in particular.  Catherine of Aragon was deposed, Anne was eventually beheaded, Sir Thomas Moore and many other lost their lives over the Act of Supremacy.  Mary Tudor (aka Bloody Mary) murdered and persecuted protestants. Philip of Spain launched the ill-fated armada against Elizabeth,  The Pope made it legal to kill her.  Scottish Lords murdered a Papal envoy to Mary Stuart (Queen of Scots) and imprisoned their own queen.  Elizabeth beheaded Mary and persecuted many Catholics.  Cromwell ultimately deposed the monarchy altogether, and after it was restored William and Mary deposed James II,  All of these things occurred over the issue of established religion.  Of course the underlying political causes were frequently the real reasons behind these things, but the issue of religion is largely what drove the bloodshed and rallied one part of the population against another.

One of the great things about Elizabeth as a monarch was that she tried - when fear of Catholic plots was not used by her advisors such as Walsingham and the like to persuadel her - to allow religious tolerance in her realm.  She very nearly lost her life to Mary Tudor, and was loathe to persecute other over matters of conscience.  She was also practical enough to recognize the real danger of civil war over the issue.  She resisted the execution of Mary Stuart to the last, and only relented when she was convinced Mary's life was a threat to her own.  In her realm, at least theoretically, a person could openly practice their faith, irrespective of what that faith was, without fear of persecution.  There was, it must be noted, an established faith.  But other sects, notably Catholicism, were not (again theoretically) persecuted.  The caveat here, of course, is that non-Christian religions were generally not tolerated. It was far too early in the course of religious strife to recognize other faiths.as equals.

The men who debated and refined the Constitution had these events and attitudes as their immediate heritage.  With that as a backdrop, they faced a daunting task - uniting peoples of different backgrounds, interests and values in a common cause.  It was unprecedented in history.  Among the many concerns that needed to be addressed, foremost was that of matters of conscience.  The founders of America had behind them a history of centuries of sectarian bloodshed.  A large part of the heritage of the former colonies was the migration to the new world of persecuted religious groups.  Eighteenth century America was also influenced, as was Europe, by the enlightenment.  So there were conflicting ideals - religious and otherwise - inherent in the establishment of a new national government.  These conflicts lead to the great compromise in general.  In particular, they lead to an understanding that the establishment of religion or the application of religious tests at the federal level were counter to the tolerance of religion.  They wished to unite Catholic and Protestant, as well as others who may hold less traditional views, in one whole.  But they did not intend to bury religious expression, nor did they intend to apply the doctrines of the first amendment and Article VI to the individual state governments.  It was understood, in fact it was a matter of strong contention, that the rights of the states to self-government were not to be effaced by the federal constitution.  Without that understanding, the Constitution would never have been ratified. 
 
Since the civil war, the advocates of a powerful central government have all but eradicated the great compromise.  The protections against federal abuses were ignored by Lincoln and drastically weakened by the fourteenth amendment.  (As the electoral system is eroded the great compromise will be destroyed entirely, and the rights of the individual states to self-government will be completely effaced.)  The specific intent of the fourteenth amendment was to alter the relationship between the federal government and the individual states.  It was justified by the rebellion and aimed at the south, but its effect was universal.  The subsequent rise of the judicial branch and the evolution of the body of case law supporting a strong federal government over the power of the states has led to an America that would not be recognized by its founders.  As Andrew Jackson negated the authority of the Judicial branch in the Cherokee decision, Lincoln negated the power of the states with the prosecution of a civil war and his predecessors with the fourteenth amendment.  The end result was that the fight to preserve the union ultimately replaced the union with a hegemony.

What all of this history has led to is a society today that, ignorant of history, claims on the one hand that we are a Christian nation (we are not) and on the other hand that our founders intended to keep religion out of public life  (they didn't).  The fact is, it was never the intent of the founders that people not be allowed to wear crosses, say prayers at school, display manger scenes in a public park or express a love for Jesus Christ while serving in public office.  It was, rather, the intent that nobody be forced to do such things.  Allowing voluntary school prayer is not requiring it.  Allowing a President to invoke the name of Jesus Christ in public discourse is not requiring it.  Allowing the display of a manger scene in a city park, or the display of the ten commandments in a courtroom is not requiring it.  But those who view the role of government as one of protection insist that they should not be "forced" to be exposed to religious expression.  The familiar argument is "Freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion."  That is nonsense.  I have the freedom to speak English, but that does not mean I have a reasonable expectation not to hear someone else speaking Spanish.  I have the freedom choose my political party, but that does not mean I can insist no government entity post a political banner endorsing a rival party.  I have the right to practice my own sexual morals, but that does not mean I have the right to prohibit a school from posting a gay rights poster in the halls.  Yet the same forces who think it is perfectly acceptable to post something I find very objectionable would fight against my right to post a religious poster on a school wall.  Why?

The reason is that those who object to religious expression wrongly place it in a "special" category.  They incorrectly assume that religion was singled out in the first amendment as particularly dangerous.  It wasn't.  It was one of five basic means of expression for which people had been historically persecuted - all covered under the first amendment.  What that amendment assured was that the rights to speak, publish, peaceably assemble, worship and petition the government without fear of retribution would not be effaced.  These things were intended to make people free not from religion or offensive speech, but rather from fear of oppression based on matters of conscience.  So it was intended that the federal government not be given authority to restrict expression in these areas.  (The states were not held by these standards until the fourteenth amendment and subsequent court decisions.)  But in either case, there was never an intent that people be protected FROM these expressions.  One cannot simultaneously protect the right to free expression and protect others from exposure to that expression. 

Finally,Article VI protects potential officeholders from being required to believe in a particular sect or a particular doctrine in order to hold office.  This is directly linked to establishment.  But again, it does not prohibit an officeholder from having - or expressing - a particular religious view.  The President can - as many have - call upon Americans to ask for God's blessing on the nation.  He may express his love for Jesus, or Buddha or Allah if he so desires.  Those, like Brass for example, who object to such expression misunderstand a basic tenet of America's value system.  A President has an equal right to express religious devotion - irrespective of sect - and to express complete disdain for religion.  It is no more wrong for a President to say "I encourage all Americans to pray to Jesus to help us in this crisis" than it is for him to say "I encourage all Americans to stop believing in this religious nonsense and recognize that the only answers we have must come from within ourselves."  He or she must live with the political consequences of such expressions, but there is nothing inherently wrong with either statement.  The President will never make a statement representative of all Americans, so he must not be prohibited from expressing himself honestly, any more than any other citizen.  While some may argue that religious expression from the National Executive may be construed by other nations as endorsement of a particular religion (and there is some validity to that) the reality is that most Americans are religious - and the vast majority of them are Christian.  For a national leader to ally himself with a particular faith is not a violation of the first amendment.  It is, in fact, an exercise thereof.

In the end, the extremes of both sides of this argument are wrong (as is usually the case).  The founders did not intend this to be a Christian nation but neither did they intend for it to be a religiously sterile nation.  The founder's intent was that religious freedom be preserved, and many encouraged the free nation to remain true to Christian ideals.  In the end, they gave us the tools to create a free society that allowed us to make it into whatever we chose.  That does not mean that they intended for us to choose unwisely.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 09:58:15 AM by Stray Pooch »
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domer

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 11:01:54 AM »
Yawn, and that is both a professional comment on your content as well the tedium your verbosity induces.

Stray Pooch

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 11:08:47 AM »
Why didn't ya just say "Your rambling bores me?"

But while I'll be the first to admit to my own tendency to overstate a case, it is nevertheless true that people on both sides of the issue are ignorant of the history of the subject and most are too lazy to study it in any depth.  That's why they come up with silly ideas like prohibiting public displays of mangers or refusing to allow Wiccans to say a prayer.

While my content may be verbose, it is nonetheless accurate.
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Amianthus

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 11:15:26 AM »
Yawn, and that is both a professional comment on your content as well the tedium your verbosity induces.

And we should trust this opinion, because it comes from the king of "tedious verbosity."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

domer

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2007, 11:16:39 AM »
Try this, Pooch: in the continuing quest for meaning in America in light of our founding documents, the principles they establish, and the history both embody and also respond to, the "Second Founding," that is, the Civil War, and its direct constitutional reflection, the Fourteenth Amendment, have a critical role your account ignores, to its detriment.

Stray Pooch

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2007, 11:48:31 AM »
The result of the civil war and the fourteenth amendment was, as I said, the rewriting of the contract that was the Constitution.  It permanently altered the relationship between the states and the union - which I believe was wrong to do.  While I do not support slavery (obviously) and recognize the inherent justice in its destruction, I nonetheless believe the southern states had the right to seceed from the union, and that to force them back under the federal thumb was as oppressive as the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia.  The fourteenth amendment simply put the nail in the coffin of the dead union and created the hegemony we live under today.

Your reference to the civil war as a "second founding" is interesting.  It is rational to look at that event as a new beginning, because it was.  But the basic ideas of the base document remain in spite of the fourteenth amendment.  While Constitutional rights protected at the federal level were extended to the state level those rights themselves did not change.  What did change was the right of the people of each state to determine how to interpret and implement the Constitution, especially in relation to their own state constitutions and moral values.   

Some of the end results of that action were laudable,notably in the area of civil rights.  Yet there are many cases where the federal government oversteps its rightful power, and uses its monopoly of real power to force states to efface the rights of their own citizens.  Abortion is an excellent example of this, as is gay marriage.   Indeed, unless my memory fails it was partly based on the fourteenth that Roe v. Wade was decided, to the detriment of the state and people of Texas (and by extension several other states). 

In the end, the result of the civil war, and the fourteenth amendment, was to create a monster.  That it was also reponsible for slaying an earlier monster does not make that any less true.
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BT

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 11:49:22 AM »
Yawn, and that is both a professional comment on your content as well the tedium your verbosity induces.

Decent Knute imitation. Low on substance, high on insult.

domer

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 11:58:27 AM »
A fundamentalists retreat: when in doubt hide behind abortion and gay marriage, items not really understood in their legal significance (whether the present rules be right or wrong).

Stray Pooch

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2007, 12:07:47 PM »
I'm not a fundamentalist, and the reference to gay marriage and abortion was only as an example.  In fact, I'll amend that reference to include only abortion, since gay marriage has so far not been forced on us at the federal level. (But I think it is accurate to predict where that will go.)

Nevertheless, I think your response to my post was more a "retreat" than my use of two current topics as examples.  Since you seem to be saying that my analysis of the fourteenth amendment and the civil war (issues which were not ignored in my original post and were further addressed in my response) is inaccurate or incomplete, how about sharing your specific disagreements or additions so I can either be enlightened or engaged in debate?  I am not insulted by your criticisms about my style, since they are accurate.  I am, however, interested in your views. If you are going to take the time to engage me, please do so constructively.
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Plane

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 08:43:24 PM »
Well and thouroughly expounded Stray Pooch!


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domer

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2007, 09:08:49 PM »
As a general orientation for post-Civil War and post-Fourteenth Amendment political (and legal) philosophy, it is accurate to say that the ideas of autonomy and all its correlative rights were given a major boost vis-a-vis the sovereign. The slow trek toward ultimate vindication of the human dignity and citizenship rights of (formerly) disenfranchised persons was a culmination of sorts of the promise made by the Founders with future generations, a promise radically amended (in terms of past attitudes and practices) on the issues I just mentioned. You can rail as to the specific decisions that have emanated from the courts in this Era of Reformation; at times you may be right as to their wisdom or provenance, while at other times you may be squarely wrong. But the undeniable fact remains, in my view, that there is no other jurisprudence that could serve us as well. To repeat, as far as the content litigated within our legal-philosophical system, a crucial -- absolutely essential -- component is the attempt to vindicate personal rights and prerogatives in relation to the authority structure. This process at times is the only avenue of redress for the disenfranchised (and others) who simply cannot muster any clout in the political arena through no fault of their own. The resulting litigation pits, at times, grand ideas such as liberty, equality, fairness and the like against entrenched interests of varying degrees of importance to the stability of the commonwealth, often pitting the demands of tradition against the forces of progress, or experimentation, yielding a dynamic tension that breathes vitality into our national spirit much more than it provides annoyance for any single, parochial decision.

Stray Pooch

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 01:08:31 AM »
Well reasoned and eloquently stated, Domer.  I agree in large part with the argument.  I recognize that much of the progress of individual rights has been made because the tyranny of some states has been overthrown by the power of the federal government.  I have myself stated on this forum in the past that such evils as slavery, Jim Crow, lynch laws and oppression of workers has been possible (and factual) under this constitution.  You once used a phrase, I believe it was "the sober judgement of a chastised people" to describe the changes that came about as a result of the racial struggle.  I found that a dead on characterization of the issue and our drawn out, still evolving reaction to it.

But while I accept that much was needed to correct the tyranny of the past, I believe that much was lost that ought not to have been.  I am not among those who believe the judicial branch should be a weak kid brother of the other two.  I think it is equal in power and ought to be able to rely on the other branches to enforce its decisions concerning the constitutionality of laws made by the legislature and actions taken by the executive.  But when the duly elected legisaltures of (ultimnately) eleven states chose to dissolve their union with the other states and form what was, in their estimation, a form of government more likely to protect their interests (unsavory as those interests clearly were) they had the right to do so.  I believe that the spirit of rebellion in the south was no less justified than the spirit of rebellion in the colonies in pre-revolution days - even if their cause was not as just.  A fundamental characteristic of America - that expressed in the motto "E pluribus unum" -  was lost.  As such, we ceased being the United States of America and became something else.  (This is, as an aside, a flashing red warning light that should have kept us out of the United Nations - and should lead us to remove ourselves now.)

All of this, however, leads back to my original point (and I did have one).  Those who use the first amendment or Article VI to bolster claims of freedom from religion - or use statements of faith from founders to proclaim us a Christian nation have a poor understanding of history, and are equally dangerous to freedom.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

domer

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Re: The founders' ACTUAL intent
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 05:48:43 PM »
Pooch, my relationship with religion is not love-hate, it's more like "love-run away" in the Monty Python sense. I think the religious sentiment, the respect for awe and the Almighty, and the moral principles that provide a foundation for religion and lead to its greatest expression of goodness in a maturing philosophy, are the cornerstones of a healthy society. That does not rule out, however, (in ways I have not yet explored) the creation of these pillars of human life and community by means other than the traditional route followed in Western civilization. Nor does it imply that religion should not be "responsive" (in the highest sense of the term), or that, like every product of the human mind (even if divinely-inspired), it does not require periodic tune-ups and perhaps overhauls to match God's promise to "human experience" (in the highest sense of THAT term). It is incomprehensible, to me, that One as Inexhaustible as the Godhead we imagine can't Himself break free from the bonds we've put upon Him (our static conceptions) and operate, as it were, in ways not yet imagined but surely within in His range as God. Thus, as I see it, as some religions do, ossifying the Lord in ways that "capture the Spirit" in so literal a way should consider letting God free now and then to write a new chapter, perhaps this time a comedy.