The Attack on Imus

[Plane]

Very weird to see that Imus is now being portrayed as the poor, woebegone victim. 
Almost makes me understand how women in some countries are expected to kill themselves if they're raped, because of the shame they brought to their families.  Almost.
In this case:  Blame the victims.  Blame anyone but the person responsible, if he's a white male.   Blame the liberals, they're all the owners of those big companies: Geico, Head-On, Bigelow....oh wait, they aren't. 

No wonder the team is getting hate mail.  (His wife says to send it to her husband.)

He is a victim , mostly of his own mouth.

Is this penalty in purportion to the offense?

I would very likely get fired , if I were talking like Imus on my job , tough I might get a bit of warning and counseling first.

[BT]

Like you said,this isn't about Imus anymore. It's about rich white men and cheering their demise.

He isn't a victim. He is a symbol, remember?

[Michael Tee]

Modesty Blaise writes:

<<They attacked Imus.>>

?   ?   ?   ?   Imus attacked them.

<<I could care less about what he says, I could care less about anything anyone says. >>

Well, it's obvious you don't give a shit if Imus or anyone else attacks black women.  It remains to be seen what would happen if some public figure personally attacked you and yours in such a vile and unjustified way.

<<It only gains credibility when it becomes something productive(do not confuse that with positive in the sense of happy joy no offense).>>

Sorry, but I don't understand you.

<< If this is a "black issue" than it is only a "black issue" by their own instigation. >>

That's ridiculous.  He called a mostly black women's team "nappy-headed hos," nappy being an adjective descriptive of African hair and hos being an African-American term for whores.  How in the hell did the team instigate that?  By being black?

<<Not to belabor the obvious any further, but it does speak of a low collective self-esteem to hear the words "nappy ho's" and immediately consider race as opposed to gender.>>

Wait a minute.  "Nappy" describes male and female African hair; no other kind of hair, so it's a specific reference to Africans and/or African-Americans; "ho" is a specifically African-American slang term for whore.  A predominantly white team couldn't be described as nappy-headed and there would be no sense in using an African-American term for whore to describe them when there are plenty on non-racial slang terms for whore in existence.  Both words used by Imus aimed at the black community exclusively.  They'd have to be morons not to understand that they were insulted for being black.

<<Now on vicitmization: I am SO SICK of the amounts of people who use their victim-as-the-victimizer status to destroy and control. >>

Good.  Now maybe you should try to understand how SICK blacks are of being victimized by racism. Do you really think this is the first time any of the blacks you're talking about have been insulted by racists, or demeaned by racism?  They LIVE with it, but you can't even stand to hear their complaints.   You really ought to get out of your shell a little more.

<<I really can't narrow down which group owns the "victim" patent, but this society is being destroyed by this. We've already been the ONLY NATION in HISTORY to continually lower our standards academically and socially to allow groups of people to "rise above", and it has never been to any good end. Using the victim-victimizer arguments onyl prolongs and validates such a sad turn of events.>>

I don't know how this turned into a debate on affirmative action, but I'm not prepared to debate you on that.  I don't think the final results are in.  It certainly seems to have lowered the standards and I'm personally aware of some very negative effects of it, but the overall picture and end result may in fact be a significant lowering of racially-disadvantaged households in America and a general spreading of the American Dream to places where it never had a hope before.  I respectfully suggest that we both keep an open mind on this subject.  (And I personally was a lot more opposed to it than you might think.)

<<And so, Michael Tee, perhaps we can hold you as a bastion of all good and decent and proper . . . >>

Awww shit, Modesty, I'm just a man.

<< . . . surely, you have never uttered any insult or degradation, or thought one, ever, at any point, in your life. >>

In all seriousness, Modesty, I can tell you that I was warned by my father at a very young age that the N-word was never, ever, ever to be used anywhere or any time, and that racial insults like "chink" or "nigger" were a sure-fire mark of ignorance and low class.  The principal of our elementary school called a special meeting of the whole school when its one black student was called names and had stones thrown at him.  I was in Grade Three then and I already knew without the Principal having to tell me how horrible this was.  I don't believe I ever went against my Dad's advice on that point.  Never said it, never thought it.  So all your sarcasm is wasted on me. 

<<Were we all so immune to being human!>>

It's not "human" to be racist and it's not "human" to be insensitive to somebody else's pain.  You are really screwed up.  Your attitudes are symptomatic of what's wrong with your country.  You don't take racism seriously and you don't give a shit about your neighbour's pain as long as you don't have to bear it yourself.

[Mucho]

That is a huge shame.
A shame he could have prevented had he thought about it, and balanced how important the charities were to him and more importantly, to the recipients.

I'm sure the children will understand. Perhaps as they age they will understand the importance of symbolism and maybe even one day feel the warm glow of blood on the fangs sanctimony.

What is preventing him from giving to them now/ Did he become a Republican after being picked on like they always claim to be?

[Michael Tee]

<<I would very likely get fired , if I were talking like Imus on my job , tough I might get a bit of warning and counseling first.>>

Sounds to me like you already should have had the warning and the counselling.

(just kidding)

[BT]

What is preventing him from giving to them now/ Did he become a Republican after being picked on like they always claim to be?

Oh I am sure he will give what he can. However the larger portion of charitable contributions came from his disenfranchised listener base.

The larger point being that this is own group that will suffer from the collateral damage from this whole affair.

And perhaps they should be thought about in between celebratory high fives.

[Michael Tee]

<<And perhaps they should be thought about in between celebratory high fives. >>

Nobody's indispensable.  The high fives are for a body blow to racism and a landmark signal that it IS increasingly repugnant to most Americans.

[BT]

The high fives are for a body blow to racism and a landmark signal that it IS increasingly repugnant to most Americans.

Glad to hear the racism problem has been solved. Symbolically at least.

[Michael Tee]

<<Glad to hear the racism problem has been solved. Symbolically at least. >>

Just one small step, unfortunately, in a long, long, long march.  Symbolically, of course.

[modestyblase]

Lanya - "I kept thinking, what if someone attacked my neighbor's girls like that? Or my sons? It got personal, and personal attacks by someone in power are wrong." You would really give someone who throws an insult credibility to their words-the insult, to narrow it down as far as posible? Why?
"Blame anyone but the person responsible, if he's a white male." Oh, please. I don't know whats worse-the "white" or the "male" part of such sentiments.
"Blame the liberals, they're all the owners of those big companies: Geico, Head-On, Bigelow....oh wait, they aren't." Actually the liberals should be blamed for guilt-trip censorship.

BT - Agreed, in re: to charities. He's done entirely too much good, and at a personal level at that; I think those talking of his "hateful" comments fail to realize no heart can be that divided,a nd the only thing he is guilty of was a jackass moment. Given that is lauded in this culture, it shouldn't have been a big deal.

MichaelTee: "Imus attacked them" He didn't attack them. He commented on their appearance, albeit in a harsh manner. They took something that should have been cast aside and-at the behest of their coach, I am sure-martyred themselves so a man could be hung.
"Well, it's obvious you don't give a shit if Imus or anyone else attacks black women. It remains to be seen what would happen if some public figure personally attacked you and yours in such a vile and unjustified way." You know, there were two white girls on the team. As for the latter statement, I wouldn't care. You would be surprised how much dignity there is in not allowing an offense to become one.

"That's ridiculous. He called a mostly black women's team "nappy-headed hos," nappy being an adjective descriptive of African hair and hos being an African-American term for whores. How in the hell did the team instigate that? By being black?"
"Wait a minute. "Nappy" describes male and female African hair; no other kind of hair, so it's a specific reference to Africans and/or African-Americans; "ho" is a specifically African-American slang term for whore. A predominantly white team couldn't be described as nappy-headed and there would be no sense in using an African-American term for whore to describe them when there are plenty on non-racial slang terms for whore in existence. Both words used by Imus aimed at the black community exclusively. They'd have to be morons not to understand that they were insulted for being black."
HAHAHA, whoah! Are you sure it's an adjective to describe african hair? and are you positive that ho's is of an african-american origin? Certainly, you sir have done more to declass that team and and african american women in general with that sentiment than Imus alone could have. Quite pejorative of you, and I'm sure you didn't intend that. And I'd love to know what other words for whore you mean that are "non-racial". Perhaps courtesan? hahahaha! Acortigiana Onesta, rofl!!
Per hyperdictionary.com: [n] garment consisting of a folded cloth drawn up between the legs and fastened at the waist; worn by infants to catch excrement [adj] in small tight curls and m-w.com:
Main Entry: 1nap·py 
Pronunciation: 'na-pE
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete nappy, adjective, foaming
chiefly Scottish : LIQUOR; specifically : ALE
Main Entry: 2nappy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
Etymology: English dialect nap bowl, from Middle English, from Old English hn[AE]pp; akin to Old High German hnapf bowl
: a rimless shallow open serving dish
Main Entry: 3nappy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural nappies
Etymology: napkin + 4-y
chiefly British : DIAPER 3
Main Entry: 4nappy
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): nap·pi·er; -est
Etymology: 3nap
: KINKY 1
For further clarification lets look up kinky as well:
Main Entry: kinky 
Pronunciation: 'ki[ng]-kE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): kink·i·er; -est
1 : closely twisted or curled
2 : relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex; also : sexually deviant
3 : OUTLANDISH, FAR-OUT

"Good. Now maybe you should try to understand how SICK blacks are of being victimized by racism. Do you really think this is the first time any of the blacks you're talking about have been insulted by racists, or demeaned by racism? They LIVE with it, but you can't even stand to hear their complaints. You really ought to get out of your shell a little more." Oh lord. Everyone who isn't white is a victim; and white men are the ultimate evil, yes. Historically we have always been the ones to blame. No one else, nope, not at all. They only live with their own deflated esteem; that it is projected onto others is irritating. Further, they wield their own outrageous insults-at the Jewish, the hispanic, the korean, etc. Maybe you should try visiting America-at least, more often.

"It certainly seems to have lowered the standards and I'm personally aware of some very negative effects of it, but the overall picture and end result may in fact be a significant lowering of racially-disadvantaged households in America and a general spreading of the American Dream to places where it never had a hope before." Well maybe a new thread sould begin. As long as a company is private, it can do as it damn well pleases-it is not confined to the federally mandated affirmative action. I will never go public with a company(I would hand that burden off by selling it, actually), and most entrepreneurs do the same. But I do admit, thats off topic.

"In all seriousness, Modesty, I can tell you that I was warned by my father at a very young age that the N-word was never, ever, ever to be used anywhere or any time, and that racial insults like "chink" or "nigger" were a sure-fire mark of ignorance and low class." Well, I agree with your father. But it's missing the point. Neither nappy nor ho are 100% black-owned. Imus made a remark that even if he had said "rode hard and put up wet" would still have been villified. I don't agree with improper behaviour in public; but the underlying issue is why what once remained "behind closed doors" is now public? I think the U.S. citizenry would do well with some etiquette classes.

"It's not "human" to be racist and it's not "human" to be insensitive to somebody else's pain. You are really screwed up. Your attitudes are symptomatic of what's wrong with your country. You don't take racism seriously and you don't give a shit about your neighbour's pain as long as you don't have to bear it yourself." It *is* human, however, to bond over negativity. Recent studies-which I cannot locate among my thousands of bookmarked links at the moment-indicate that for the majority of humans, bonding over negative commentary-particularly gossip-is a prevailing social bond. As for "pain"-it is largely of one's own doing. Psychologically harsh, perhaps, but true. No I will not validate racism-prejudices exist, and NO ONE is immune from having them or having them used against them. As well-no, I don't care much about others pain. Why should I ahve to bear their cross when I've had to bear my own? That's a very selfish and childish thing, to expect others to bear your cross.

[Lanya]

 modestyblase,
From what the team members said at their press conference, at first, they did not think much of the words.  It wasn't the first time in their lives they'd been confronted with racism I'm sure.  But they got calls at home, at their dorm rooms, on their cell phones, media people came to their parents'  homes on  Easter break (this is from my memory of what was said, if incorrect, I apologize) and kept asking them, "What's your response to Imus calling you a nappy-headed ho?"  Over, and over and over again, until they had to deal with it publicly.
If my child were shown on TV making a basket and someone said a similar remark,  I don't know what I'd do.   For a person in a position of power to make fun of the powerless is NOT funny; it's antithetical to humor. 
Luckily my kids are male and white.  They will face fewer challenges than black women. 
As to words: Words hurt worse than slaps.  They last longer.  They are far more powerful.  My opinion, my experience.

[Michael Tee]

modestyblase, your twisting and torturing of dictionary definitions to "prove" that "nappy-headed ho" is not a racist insult reminded me somewhat of Bill Clinton's "It all depends on what you mean by 'is'"  A valiant effort, to be sure, but at the end of the day I wouldn't think that there is one American in ten thousand who didn't understand that "nappy-headed ho" is, and was meant to be, a racist reference to black female whores.  That's the message that Imus sent out and that is the message that almost any listener would receive.  On the plain, everyday meaning of the words.   If you don't see that, then we respectfully must simply agree to disagree.

As far as the supposed "dignity" of not taking offense, I don't agree at all.  In a racially-victimized minority, silently absorbing the offense without protest just adds to the indignity and the degradation.  Moreover, the blacks "suffered in silence" from the end of the Civil War till the 1950s and remained the victims of lynch mobs and the Jim Crow system of legalized institutional degradation and dehumanization.  It was only through unremitting, clamorous protests that they began to lift the weight of American racism off their backs, which they are still in the process of doing.

<<Oh lord. Everyone who isn't white is a victim; and white men are the ultimate evil, yes. >>

Well, we aren't talking about "everyone who isn't white;" the subject, if you recall, is black people, specifically black Afro-Americans.

<<Historically we [white Americans] have always been the ones to blame. No one else, nope, not at all. >>

Well, maybe you are right.  Who would YOU blame for slavery, Jim Crow and racism, in addition to white American males?  Japanese women?  Indonesian children?  Blackfoot Sioux transvestites?  

<< Further, they [blacks] wield their own outrageous insults-at the Jewish, the hispanic, the korean, etc. Maybe you should try visiting America-at least, more often.>>

You think the Jews, Hispanics and Koreans don't insult the blacks as well?  Or is it OK to insult the blacks because "they" insult Jews, Koreans and Hispanics?  Who specifically did the Rutgers team insult racially that justified Imus' insults?

<< . . .  but the underlying issue is why what once remained "behind closed doors" is now public? >>

Well, geeze, with all due respect, that's like saying that public broadcasters now can reach an audience of millions with their thoughts and comments.  We reached that point over eighty years ago.  Most people today recognize the issue as being WHAT is said over the airwaves, not that things CAN be said over them.

<<I think the U.S. citizenry would do well with some etiquette classes.>>

You know and I know that ain't never gonna happen.

<<As well-no, I don't care much about others pain. Why should I have to bear their cross when I've had to bear my own? That's a very selfish and childish thing, to expect others to bear your cross. >>

You got it turned around 180 degrees.  What's selfish and childish is to become so self-absorbed in your own problems that you just don't give a shit about your neigbour's.  As John Donne said, "No man is an ilande."  That is something everyone had better recognize.

[Mucho]

Very weird to see that Imus is now being portrayed as the poor, woebegone victim. 
Almost makes me understand how women in some countries are expected to kill themselves if they're raped, because of the shame they brought to their families.  Almost.
In this case:  Blame the victims.  Blame anyone but the person responsible, if he's a white male.   Blame the liberals, they're all the owners of those big companies: Geico, Head-On, Bigelow....oh wait, they aren't. 

No wonder the team is getting hate mail.  (His wife says to send it to her husband.)

Speaking of typical RW hate mail:

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_104002437.html

[BT]

For a person in a position of power to make fun of the powerless is NOT funny; it's antithetical to humor.

I'm not sure Imus is in a position of power. Please expand on that statement.

[modestyblase]

modestyblase, your twisting and torturing of dictionary definitions to "prove" that "nappy-headed ho" is not a racist insult reminded me somewhat of Bill Clinton's "It all depends on what you mean by 'is'"  A valiant effort, to be sure, but at the end of the day I wouldn't think that there is one American in ten thousand who didn't understand that "nappy-headed ho" is, and was meant to be, a racist reference to black female whores.  That's the message that Imus sent out and that is the message that almost any listener would receive.  On the plain, everyday meaning of the words.   If you don't see that, then we respectfully must simply agree to disagree.

"Nappy" is NOT only for the black community to claim as their own. I hear it applied to and used by many in day-to-day Dallas life. In fact, a senior partner of my best friends firm said a white girl was "a fat nappy disgrace". Apparently she was ill-dressed and poorly groomed(oh yes and fat). Hearsay, yes, and not irrefutable in a court of law sort of fact, but still.

As far as the supposed "dignity" of not taking offense, I don't agree at all.  In a racially-victimized minority, silently absorbing the offense without protest just adds to the indignity and the degradation.  Moreover, the blacks "suffered in silence" from the end of the Civil War till the 1950s and remained the victims of lynch mobs and the Jim Crow system of legalized institutional degradation and dehumanization.  It was only through unremitting, clamorous protests that they began to lift the weight of American racism off their backs, which they are still in the process of doing.

In the '60s there was reason to fight. There was reason to take to the streets and march. Now there is no excuse short of their own failures. Anyone who has fought through the ghetto to make it for themselves will tell you that, regardless of their race. Furthermore, racism is kept alive ONLY by those giving it credbility. To use another legal reference: In a court of law, an unscrupulous attorney may raise in trial or motions a statement out of scope of the initial suit. If the other attorney acknowledges that sentiment in any manner, even if it is only to say its not true, if they say anything except objection out of scope-they have given the statement credibility and it thus becomes a triable issue.

"Well, maybe you are right.  Who would YOU blame for slavery, Jim Crow and racism, in addition to white American males?  Japanese women?  Indonesian children?  Blackfoot Sioux transvestites?"
Be careful with that. Do you think it was white people selling the slaves from Africa to the U.S.? Do you think only white people owned slaves? There is much documentation on Blacks-particularly in black-friendly southern cities like New Orleans-owning slaves. Slavery was an economic principle THROUGHOUT WORLD HISTORY(suffered by every nationality in existence, nearly)that finally began phasing out prior to the Civil War. You know, the burden of ownership being what it is and all.

"You think the Jews, Hispanics and Koreans don't insult the blacks as well?  Or is it OK to insult the blacks because "they" insult Jews, Koreans and Hispanics?  Who specifically did the Rutgers team insult racially that justified Imus' insults?"
Your liberalism is making you sound silly. I could construe the above sentiment to mean that only blacks can be offended or spew awful speech. But I won't. I could also construe that if someone is "justified" by another actions than it is ok to make ignorant or inflammatory statements. But, again, I won't. I do challenge you, however, to state with more clarity whatever it is your point had been.

Well, geeze, with all due respect, that's like saying that public broadcasters now can reach an audience of millions with their thoughts and comments.  We reached that point over eighty years ago.
Hypersensitivity has really killed alot of the fun broadcasters were having years ago. Steve Allen's "Hebrew National Salami" bit would never fly today. But, short of Lenny Bruce(older generations, help me out?) I can't think of anyone using the sort of language currently raising national news media discourse.

You got it turned around 180 degrees.  What's selfish and childish is to become so self-absorbed in your own problems that you just don't give a shit about your neigbour's.  As John Donne said, "No man is an ilande."  That is something everyone had better recognize.
If my neighbor's house is torn down in a tornado, or affected by other means-I will help him rebuild it(actually, I'm a girl and I'm sexist so I would make my boyfriend do it, or have him hire it done  ). If my neighbor is injured bodily and needs my assistance, I will offer it. If my neighbor has low self-esteem, ocd, etc.-I will not help him. It is not my issue, nor am I qualified to.